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A couple of alternative 1000pt CSM lists - any feedback appreciated. One has Juggerlord and bikers, the other has a lord on foot and a Cultist blob. It's likely that these lists will be facing DA and Eldar. N.B. I don't hava any Oblits or Termies.

Option 1

--HQ--
Chaos Lord - Juggernaut, MoK, Melta Bombs, Sigil of Corruption, VotLW, AoBF (180) Will run with the bikers.

--Elites--
Helbrute - Plasma Cannon, PF (110)

--Troops--
10x Cultists (50)
6x CSM - MoN, 1x Plasma Gun (121)
6x CSM - MoN, 1x Plasma Gun (121)

--Fast Attack--
5x Bikers - MoK, VotLW (125)
Heldrake - Baleflamer (170)

--Heavy Support--
5x Havocs - 4x AC, VotLW (120)

TOTAL 997

Option 2

--HQ--
Chaos Lord - MoN, Melta Bombs, Blight Grenades, Sigil of Corruption, BBoS (145)

--Troops--
24x Cultists (106) The Lord will join this lot.
10x Cultists (50)
10x CSM - MoN, VotLW, 2x Plasma Gun (121)
7x PM - 1x Plasma Gun (183)

--Fast Attack--
Heldrake - Baleflamer (170)

--Heavy Support--
6x Havocs - 4x AC, VotLW (134)

TOTAL 998

Any feedback appreciated. I considered running 2 Heldrakes but though it might make the list a bit unbalanced at 1000pts.

I would make the marines in your first list all one squad... you may lose flexibility but 12 is harder to kill than 6. Other than that first list looks good, if your going to run cultists i suggest giving them MoN or MoT as it makes them harder to wound/ gives them an invul against well everything...

Thanks for the advice - I suffered in my last game due to a lack of troops units for objectives but I suppose that if one of the CSM units gets picked off I'm back down to two troops anyway. It might well be a good idea to lump all the CSM into one unit for survivability.

The Cultists are to come on from reserve to hopefully grab a backfield objective late on. I could maybe give them a mark if there are spare points. If I'm running them as a meat shield blob I don't usually bother as their job is to die.

I do that with cultists but in some games MoN really helps... Also the CSM's in one big blob is harder to kill especially MoN making them T5...

You should aim your lord and the bikes at your opponents strongest unit to soak up fire with the bikes then brake the lord off charge his unit and kill its sergeant then you are locked in combat with their best unit...

This is my latest amendment.

--HQ--
Chaos Lord - Juggernaut, MoK, Melta Bombs, Sigil of Corruption, VotLW, AoBF (180) Will run with the bikers.

--Elites--
Helbrute - Plasma Cannon, Power Scourge (120)

--Troops--
10x Cultists (50)
12x CSM - MoN, VotLW, 1x Flamer 1x Plasma Gun (234)


--Fast Attack--
5x Bikers - MoK, VotLW (125)
Heldrake - Baleflamer (170)

--Heavy Support--
5x Havocs - 4x AC, VotLW (120)

TOTAL 999

I'm considering losing the Helbrute to bulk out the troops some more, perhaps split the CSM back into 2 units. I have had some reasonable success with the Helbrute when I've fielded it though and it can be fun to play with.

Any thoughts?

you lack anti tank, if the DA player plonks a landaider on the table you will have a problem with no good solution. a nice idea may be to drop the brute and get and ADL with lascannon, then the havocs can camp in cover and the champ can ride the big gun and shoot stuff, plus it provides anti air and gives you some points left over to give your bikes some <insert favorite gun> i like plasma brutes but they dont fill a battlefeild role so i leave them unless i have points to blow or need some extra AP2

 Blackskull wrote:
you lack anti tank, if the DA player plonks a landaider on the table you will have a problem with no good solution. a nice idea may be to drop the brute and get and ADL with lascannon, then the havocs can camp in cover and the champ can ride the big gun and shoot stuff, plus it provides anti air and gives you some points left over to give your bikes some <insert favorite gun> i like plasma brutes but they dont fill a battlefeild role so i leave them unless i have points to blow or need some extra AP2

At the moment none of my opponents have heavy tanks or flyers (we're all fairly new still to 40k) unless they have made some recent purchases. The DA usually runs Sammael and a lot of bike squads, with some tac squads and termies. The Eldar have a lot of options but the heaviest stuff is probably War Walkers, a Wave Serpent, Wraithlord and an Avatar.

I'll need some anti-tank at some point though, the ADL with Havocs sounds like a nice combination. I was also thinking about a lascannon predator.

I play against DA a lot, and I've found the Helbrute w/plasma cannon to be fun but not enough bang for buck. I love my helbrutes, don't get me wrong, but in smaller lists I'd recommend keeping 'em cheap or not using them at all. Basic Helbrutes, or kitted for CC. Scourges make Helbrutes serious tarpits; they can sit and hold their ground for ages that way. The question is can you afford it, and can you justify it?

Juggerlord is always good.

For your troops, remember if you've got 2-3 points left in your list no reason not to give your cultists 2-3 autoguns. A few lucky shots while sitting on an objective can't hurt. As far as marks on the cultists, I seriously wouldn't bother. I've played with everything from MSU of cultists to fielding huge blobs of them, and the points are ALWAYS better spent on more bodies before upgrades for these things. Remember; they're crap. Their job is to hide in the back and absorb damage, or rush something and absorb damage. No reason to make a throw-away unit more expensive.

ADL with Havocs is a solid choice.

 Laughingcarp wrote:
I play against DA a lot, and I've found the Helbrute w/plasma cannon to be fun but not enough bang for buck. I love my helbrutes, don't get me wrong, but in smaller lists I'd recommend keeping 'em cheap or not using them at all. Basic Helbrutes, or kitted for CC. Scourges make Helbrutes serious tarpits; they can sit and hold their ground for ages that way. The question is can you afford it, and can you justify it?

I feel pretty much the same way about Helbrutes; fun but not ultra competitive, especially in smaller lists. I have found that the enemy often makes them a priority target though and with good luck can take a lot of fire that would otherwise be aimed at other units.

If I was going to remove the Helbrute, what would be a better addition to the list? I don't really need anti-tank for these games.

Yeah my old mainstay for the Helbrute was twin-linked Las & Missile. Worked ok as a mobile fire platform, but obliterators and preds do it better.

Have you considered Chaos Spawn? For the 120 pts of the Helbrute you'll get 4 Spawn. 12 T5 wounds worth of 4d6 S5 attacks, potentially poisoned (yay high strength allowing wound re-rolls!) or potentially even more attacks. They're not the best pain bringers in our 'dex, but they're excellent for tar-pitting expensive units/models or wrecking troops a new one. CC with them can be messy in your favour. Plus they're faster than a snot rocket fired from a pro football player's nose.
Great alternate delivery system for your Juggerlord, and a nice scary CC ablative screen for your bikers.
I've been running them almost since day 1, and I always bring them with my Juggerlord. They have only failed me once. As long as you remember to rotate them around so wounded models live in the back, you'll get lots of return on their attacks.

Alternately, use the points to beef up your CSM & Biker squads. Two or three more models in each and a couple nice guns ain't a bad plan.