Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

If I shoot, decide to focus fire, and am not in rage of the models to whom I've focused on for rapid, but wholly within the range of rapid fire on parts of the squad I'm shooting at, can I still double tap?

Why wouldn't you be able to?


All that is required for Double tap is that a single model from the target unit is within 12 inches of your model.

Because he is focus firing, in order to focus fire you must have range to a model that can have wounds allocated to it, if you have declared to focus fire say 4+ and only have rapid fire range to models with a 4+ cover save then no you cannot rapid fire.

MarkyMark wrote:
Because he is focus firing, in order to focus fire you must have range to a model that can have wounds allocated to it, if you have declared to focus fire say 4+ and only have rapid fire range to models with a 4+ cover save then no you cannot rapid fire.

Sorry why not?

MarkyMark wrote:
Because he is focus firing, in order to focus fire you must have range to a model that can have wounds allocated to it, if you have declared to focus fire say 4+ and only have rapid fire range to models with a 4+ cover save then no you cannot rapid fire.

This is wrong. The 2 Shots mode of Rapid Fire weapons has no effect on the maximum range. As long as the models you're trying to allocate wounds to are within your maximum range (24" for a bolter) and a model from the same unit is within half range (12" for the bolter) you get the extra shot. The extra shot has nothing at all to do with allocation, and has no effect on your maximum range. It is not a different firing mode.

 FlingitNow wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
Because he is focus firing, in order to focus fire you must have range to a model that can have wounds allocated to it, if you have declared to focus fire say 4+ and only have rapid fire range to models with a 4+ cover save then no you cannot rapid fire.

Sorry why not?

In order to fire, a model must be in range of a model that can have a wound allocated to it.

Is that not clear enough to say you are measuring range from the firing unit to the models have a worse cover save then declared?.

If a unit shooting rapid fire weapons is found to be partially within half range the of the target, the firing models within half range fire two shots....

It says nothing about target unit, just target, so the target would be the model that can have wounds allocated to it no?



Acutally just read the rules on target, it is the nearest visable model so ignore this!, so yes you can rapid fire as long as one visable model is in rapid fire range

The question is, do you measure range for focus firing from the shooting model to the nearest effected unit or the unit as a whole?

The rulebook requires the closest model in the chosen cover to be in range, but does that count for drawing range in the first place?

Yes, as specified in the rules for measuring between units - closest model to closest model.

It's all in the timing. Rapid Fire's number of shots is determined when you check for range - it couldn't work any other way.
I believe Focus Fire is determined when allocating wounds, but I have a funny feeling in the back of my head that you declare it when you declare the shooting attack - if so, that would put it at the same stage as checking line of sight...

It is before rolling to hit, so the same time as checking range.

After checking range, remember there are steps to shooting.

The range of a boltgun is 24 inches, Always (Unless you are attacking a Dark Eldar vehicle that has the range reduction wargear).

The boltguns never have a range of 12 inches...

 DeathReaper wrote:
The range of a boltgun is 24 inches, Always (Unless you are attacking a Dark Eldar vehicle that has the range reduction wargear).

The boltguns never have a range of 12 inches...

They do unfortunately have a rapid fire range, which is 12. The question is, what take precedence, range to the squad your targeting, or range to the models you've specifically elected to shoot.

 davou wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The range of a boltgun is 24 inches, Always (Unless you are attacking a Dark Eldar vehicle that has the range reduction wargear).

The boltguns never have a range of 12 inches...

They do unfortunately have a rapid fire range, which is 12. The question is, what take precedence, range to the squad your targeting, or range to the models you've specifically elected to shoot.

Not true.

1) Weapons have the rapid fire type, this has nothing to do with the range of said weapon.

2) a standard Boltgun has a range of 24 inches, Always (See the exception above)

3) a standard Boltgun, or indeed any weapon with the rapid fire type, can shoot two shots if there is a model from the target unit within half of the range of the weapon. "A model armed with a Rapid Fire weapon can fire two shots at a target up to half the weapon's maximum range away" (52)

4) The quote shows that the Boltgun still has a range of 24 inches, even when firing twice at a target that is up to half of the weapons max range.

Then when focus firing, is the target the squad or the models being focused on?

 davou wrote:
Then when focus firing, is the target the squad or the models being focused on?

The target is always the unit you selected in the choose target step of the shooting rules.

This is a tricky one. The rules for focus fire state "In order to fire, a model must be in range of an enemy that can have a wound allocated to it... Note that you work out which models in the target unit can have Wounds allocated to them at the time the Focus Fire is declared" (pg 19 BRB). And the rules for Focus Fire are very clear about determining which models can and cannot have wounds allocated to them.

So now we need to take a look at the rapid fire rules, which are found on page 52 of the BRB.

The sticking points that this argument will revolve around:
--Whether when you are rapid firing your range is considered 12" or 24" (or 15" or 30")
--What exactly they mean by "target" and whether or not something that you cannot allocate wounds to is a target regarding shooting.

Some RAW interpreters will argue that an enemy model 16" away at the chosen Focus Fire cut off is within range of a Bolter since Rapid Fire does not actually change the range of the weapon. So, as long as there is also an enemy model from that same unit within 12"--that they could not allocate wounds to because it is at the wrong cover level--they get to Rapid Fire.

There doesn't appear to be anything RAW that directly contradicts this interpretation, though it seems a bit silly to me.

HIWPI, models that you cannot allocate wounds to wouldn't constitute part of your target, especially considering you are focusedon a specific subset of models, which to me constitutes a more highly defined "target". In order to gain the benefit of Rapid Fire, you would have to check range to models upon which you can allocate wounds.

 davou wrote:
Then when focus firing, is the target the squad or the models being focused on?

The unit, as the Target does not alter when declaring focus fire.
The range of the boltgun never changes.

So yes, entirely possible to focus fire such that a model 13" away is eligible to be killed by a bolter, as the bolters range (24") has not altered (barring nightshields, as mentioned)

Purple Saturday wrote:
when you are rapid firing...

they get to Rapid Fire.

since Rapid Fire does not actually change the range...

...they get to Rapid Fire.

You do not rapid fire a Boltgun anymore than you Heavy a Missile Launcher or Assault a Storm Bolter...

Rapid Fire is a weapon type. It has nothing to do with the Double Tap (Firing two shots from a rapid fire weapon).

I see no requirements that a model within 12" in the target unit has to have wounds able to be allocated to it.

i think if that were the case, half of your rapid fire wounds technically couldnt wound outside the doubletap range...if you wanted to get funky with it lol.

You should be able to get doubletap, since its still the same unit youre firing at.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i think if that were the case, half of your rapid fire wounds technically couldnt wound outside the doubletap range...if you wanted to get funky with it lol.

Why, is there some rule that limits the range of a rapid fire weapon that I missed?

Can you point it out to me, Page and Graph will suffice.

If Focus Fire wasn't even coming into play (let us say that one Ork Boy is within 12", while the rest of the mob lies between 13"-24") you would still get all your extra attacks, and it isn't like half of your wounds would just vanish from the wound pool after Orkio Uno got killed.

If a single model from the squad was within 12" of the firer at the time of firing, the shooter gets an extra shot off. The wound is only inapplicable if the nearest model is beyond the weapon's maximum range at the time of wound application, and the bolter range is still 24", like it always is.

Good question though. Interesting point for clarification.

What if the only models within double tap range are out of LoS? So the nearest Ork in LoS is 13" away but there is another Ork out of LoS (and therefore can't have a wound allocated to him) but within 12" do you get 2 shots or 1 with your Rapidfire weapon?

FlingitNow: 2 shots, the only requirement for a Rapid Fire weapon to gain an extra shot is range, there are no LoS requirements as far as I can tell.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
FlingitNow: 2 shots, the only requirement for a Rapid Fire weapon to gain an extra shot is range, there are no LoS requirements as far as I can tell.

There is based on the target mentioned. You cannot target something you cannot see.

So you would only get 1 shot in that situation mentioned Flingitnow

You measure range to the closest model within LoS. If all models within double-tap range are OoS, then you would not get to double-tap.

Surely that depends on how you interpret range. We are told to check range as follows:

"When checking range, simply measure from each firer to the nearest visible model in the target unit"

To me that implies you need LoS. Though as Focus Fire is declared after range is determined it would appear you get the double tap where as from my example you wouldn't.

How?.

We choose a target first checking LOS then Range then we do focus fire, there is nothing in there to allow you to measure range for shooting or allocate wounds to a model out of LOS.

Also the which models can fire, we are told to check range to the nearest visable model.

Think that is pretty clear, yes you could try and say that double tap merely says measure range but who can fire (which is before rolling to hit of course) says it is the nearest visable model, we even have a little diagram to explain.

Markymark are you agreeing or disagreeing with me? Your post seems muddled.