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1. What is the purpose of the crusades that dumped an entire 30 space marine chapters into the Eye of Terror where they'd better be used elsewhere where Chaos threat can be easily contained? the Crusade is initiated by a big liar named Basilius (Greek language means Prince, Chief), who later made Saints for several millenia until a leader of crusading marine veterans (who remain sane) removed his saint status. Basilius knew with all his heart that the Crusade is doomed to fail (and out of neccessary! deploying those crusaders at, in or around Cadian gate to whack any big name Chaos goons (Chaos-serving SM Chapters like Sons of Malice) in real space makes more senses). Also what are the 'proofs' that identifies the 'lack of loyalty' he accused on those marine chapters.
Does he has bigger agenda , and by the time he initiated the Crusade, what is his position in the Church?
2. How can a crusader maintain his sanity while standing on the ground that rules in the real space doesn't apply. everyone in the Imperium knows, and had been told about ultimate horrors in the Eye, smart military commanders knew that fighting Chaos right in the Eye of Terror is an impossible war, winning wars against Chaos goons in a system that engulfed with warpstorm is possible (but still hard... in a canon ending of Soulstorm (ok. Cyrus the Blood Raven scout implied that Boreale lost the war but he, along with the remnants of his troops made it out of there.. it is likely that Vance Stubbs won) it is still possible for Imperial troops to win the campaign in such environment. much of the crusading troops slaughtered, the remainder lost its sanity, some even joined Chaos!!!
also in Abyssal campaign, there were sane survivors, sane enough to remain loyal, sane enough to earn some sort of authorities to depose any saints should the fallacy be proven.
3. About an authority to appoint and depose a saint. Who has such authority? How big the political extent of any SM Chapter Master possibly is? if they have their representative seats in High Lords Council of Terra. what are favorite chapters to be appointed/voted as Astartes representatives?

The Inquisition and the Ecclesiarchy together determine if someone truly is or is not a Saint. A military commander does not have the authority or remit to declare someone a Saint. The tests to determine if someone is or is not a Saint are pretty thorough, and have, historically, revealed many who were thought of as Saints to be daemonically-influenced.

Basilius was an agent of chaos in disguise (The returning space marine that "removed his saint status" presented adequate evidence to the inquisition for the inquisition to declare this IMMEDIATLEY and wipe out everything even remotely related to Basilius, so it must have been some darn good evidence. Oh, and by "remove his saint status", I mean kill him and send his remains flying into the nearest sun)

The marines were expected to die on the abyssal crusade by the Imperium. It was a suicide mission but one last attempt to die with honor. Of course, this was Chaos' plan all along and what really happened was Chaos got a bunch of shiny new recruits.

Maybe. Not confirmed, but seems plausible. He had previously been confirmed a Saint, somehow. I'm thinking that, whatever he did to be confirmed a Saint was legit, but, over time, Chaos got to him and later turned him, so that his rise to prominence was fine, but it was what happened after that point that caused his downfall.

Though, looking more into the background of all this, it seems more of some hand-waving in order to set up this 3000 year-old-event in order to justify some new Chaos Space Marines.

If everyone is throwing around theories, I'll add mine, too!

Upon the crusading forces' return, Basilius is described to be "now ancient" and, after about 800 years, probably doesn't look/think/act so good anymore, even with the use of rejuvenation techniques. Over the past centuries, he will have made a lot of powerful enemies, who have just been biding their time, waiting for the right moment to topple him. He would have likely lost considerable influence already, but the return of the triumphant Space Marines gives his enemies the opportunity to denounce their hated opponent.
If his worshippers were few enough to fit on a single starship, then I think he was already fairly unpopular when the Astartes returned. All that was needed now was a good enough reason to finally kill him in a way that was acceptable to all the major Imperial Adepta.

Sounds good, too.

There's just a whole lot of hand-waving going on with the overall story, that I don't think much thought was put into it. This is a guy who basically gets to decide that these 30 Space Marine Chapters should be placed under his orders to go attack the EoT, meanwhile he already had several other Chapters rolling around, purging dudes he told them to purge, and apparently the HLoT wouldn't dare step to this guy.

It just seems... too convenient, really. Like the writer did not stop and think about what he was saying this guy could do, and how little power the Ecclesiarchy would have, if this all started at the tail-end of the "Ecclesiarchal Purges". I mean, there were Sisters around at this time, you'd think they'd notice this guy violating the Decree Passive if suddenly he's got entire Chapters of Space Marines at his beck and call.

Well, if he really was a Living Saint, then I suppose he would have had a lot of influence with the Ecclesiarchy (including the SoB) and the High Lords - it would have merely waned over the centuries when that guy didn't die but became more and more of a political leader pulling strings in the background, perhaps even being corrupted by his own thirst for power, and eventually locking himself away in a huge estate with a legion of loyal followers to savour the fruits of his life's work. Then his enemies make their move.

But I certainly agree, it would have made so much more sense if that first entry in the timeline would happen within the Age of Apostasy, and the second just as it ends. Ideally have the whole thing take place in an area of space that was cut off from Terra due to one of those huge warp storms like it happened with Bucharis' little empire.

It wasn't so much a lack of loyalty it was that they were deemed to be tainted because of the proximity that their homewolds had to the warpstorm, it was also because their gene - seed also reflected this, that there were instabilities.

A couple of things that I think about on this are which Space Marines Chapters were on his side, as it mentions that he has Astartes support, and what became of these after the Vorpal Swords returned and how big was this Warp Storm to hold 30 Astartes Homeworlds?

Did I miss something? Where did the sources mention that he had Astartes support, or that the condemned Chapters were tainted? To my knowledge, the only sources where this event was referenced are the two entries in the 6E rulebook's timeline, and they did not provide a lot of information at all:

- someone by the name of Basilius had a whole lot of influence
- he condemned a number of Marine Chapters for "lacking in faith"
- said Chapters go into the Warp as part of a penitent crusade in order to avoid being purged
- they come back a couple centuries later
- Basilius is denounced as a false prophet and executed

Or does the new Space Marine Codex expand on this event? >_>

Chaos Codex 6E.

Lexi gives a pretty accurate run down.

Huh, thanks for the tip! I'll have to hunt down the new Chaos 'dex for a looksee then.
I'm a bit prejudiced against trusting Lexicanum without having seen the actual source due to a number of earlier inaccuracies in my fluff research.

 Psienesis wrote:
Maybe. Not confirmed, but seems plausible. He had previously been confirmed a Saint, somehow.

It IS confirmed, more than enough beyond a reasonable doubt, at least. We don't have the details of HOW it was confirmed, but it was sure as hell confirmed enough for the Inquisition and High Lords to IMMEDIATELY believe the evidence presented by a Space Marine that came out of the eye of Terror, leading them to declare this "saint" a heretic, kill him AND all his followers and ANYTHING associated with him AND SEND IT ALL FLYING INTO A NEARBY STAR WHILE DESTROYING ALL RECORDS RELATED TO HIM.

Whatever the hell evidence that Space Marine presented to the Inquisition, it must have been DAMN GOOD EVIDENCE enough to confirm everything to make the Imperium do THAT.

Also, he was DECLARED a saint, not confirmed one. "Confirmed" implies that there was something special or supernatural about him even before the ecclesiarchy said "Oh, this guy's a saint!". Unlike a hypothetical concept of actually confirming someone is miraculous, the Ecclesiarchy at best can only declare that someone is miraculous by declaring them a saint. That doesn't magically make someone a "daemon prince of the Emperor" (or whatever the hell beings like Celstine or Sabbath are) just by declaring them as such. Again (in reference to a prior thread on the issue), this is why it's VERY important to draw a distinction between Saint Celestine (an apparently actually supernatural being) and all those other saints that exist just because "the ecclesiarchy says so." Saint Celestine and Saint Sabbath vs a saint who was only declared a saint by the ecclesiarchy are two VERY different things (although it's true that Celestine and Sabbath were declared saints as well. Their supernatural power, however, likely stems from another source or only comes from that declaration indirectly due to the related faith from human beings produced by that declaration, at best).

In this case, though, I guess you could say Saint Basilius was miraculous, but not in the ways the Ecclesiarchy and Imperium would have liked. Yea, he was miraculous... because he was corrupted by chaos!

Also, the wiki gives a more thorough version than the lexi does.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Abyssal_Crusade

Oh, and he didn't command those space marines nor was he their master. Instead, they agreed to his demands due to the circumstances involved. Big difference.

 Lynata wrote:
Huh, thanks for the tip! I'll have to hunt down the new Chaos 'dex for a looksee then.
I'm a bit prejudiced against trusting Lexicanum without having seen the actual source due to a number of earlier inaccuracies in my fluff research.

As am I, I think it's always best to find out for yourself regardless of how accurate the information is.

Have a look at the entry on Abaddon and the Crimson Path stuff and see what you make of it as well.

I was really interested in the Abyssal Crusade, and it's kinda cool as it is, but I think naming all the Chapters wasn't necessary and having it down to taint made it less dramatic. From the BRB fluff it sounded like there was more to it through less information, say, they had not been doing their duties as Astartes or they had not been listening to the High Lords and acting on their own.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

I was really interested in the Abyssal Crusade, and it's kinda cool as it is, but I think naming all the Chapters wasn't necessary and having it down to taint made it less dramatic. From the BRB fluff it sounded like there was more to it through less information, say, they had not been doing their duties as Astartes or they had not been listening to the High Lords and acting on their own.

Yea, I kinda liked the idea that some space marine chapters could be declared too unruly or too LAZY that they'd be sent on a penitent crusade. It implied that the Imperium actually had some sort of system in place to explain what would keep the Space Marines actually doing... things. Right now, Space Marine chapters can be completely independent entities who are technically not obligated in any way to actually DO something The old Abyssal Crusade's lack of info meant one possible interpretation of it was that there was some system in place to monitor whether or not Space Marine chapters were actually doing Space Marine things instead of just neglecting their duties or being rebellious.

The new more detailed fluff though... yea, taint and Chaos plot. Though I like the new detailed fluff too. It shows that Chaos at least knows how to increase its followers on a MASSIVE scale (something THIS big was likely plotted out by Tzeentch himself, and maybe even all four gods working together since all four of them benefitted) rather than kill itself all the time. And it also brings to mind the funny idea of all four gods sitting around a table with Tzeentch saying "Hey everyone! I have this great idea on how we can get more chaos marines for all!"

TiamatRoar wrote:Also, he was DECLARED a saint, not confirmed one. [...] Again (in reference to a prior thread on the issue), this is why it's VERY important to draw a distinction between Saint Celestine (an apparently actually supernatural being) and all those other saints that exist just because "the ecclesiarchy says so."

As far as the Imperium is concerned, it's the same thing. You don't just get nominated as a Saint, a case has to be built in your favour, which means that the belief that your actions are of divine nature must already be popular. The Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition then gather to test the subject and examine the evidence to either denounce or confirm the proposition, and if an individual is confirmed to be a Saint, he or she gets declared as one.

In-universe, there exists no distinction. Any Saint is said to be a conduit through which the Emperor works his divine miracles. Whether this is true or not doesn't matter, this is how the Church operates and what it tells the faithful. They don't realise any difference between someone like Celestine and someone like Sebastian Thor (if there actually is one!), both are treated as the same thing. "Miracles" (quotation marks intended) can take many forms, after all.

And out-of-universe, we just don't know, given that anything we actually get to read is just as twisted by propaganda, legend and half-truths, open to our interpretation.

Pilau Rice wrote:I was really interested in the Abyssal Crusade, and it's kinda cool as it is, but I think naming all the Chapters wasn't necessary and having it down to taint made it less dramatic. From the BRB fluff it sounded like there was more to it through less information, say, they had not been doing their duties as Astartes or they had not been listening to the High Lords and acting on their own.

Yeah, a case of "doctrinal heresy" like with the Sons of Malice. I agree with the BRB making it sound more interesting.

If the Lexicanum article is correct (I'm way too curious to be able to wait until I get to check out the Codex myself), an interesting new piece of info would be that Basilius was already dead when the Marines returned, essentially "retconning" his execution in the BRB piece and rendering the whole affair a posthumous deconstruction of one man's legacy.

 Lynata wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:Also, he was DECLARED a saint, not confirmed one. [...] Again (in reference to a prior thread on the issue), this is why it's VERY important to draw a distinction between Saint Celestine (an apparently actually supernatural being) and all those other saints that exist just because "the ecclesiarchy says so."

As far as the Imperium is concerned, it's the same thing. You don't just get nominated as a Saint, a case has to be built in your favour, which means that the belief that your actions are of divine nature must already be popular. The Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition then gather to test the subject and examine the evidence to either denounce or confirm the proposition, and if an individual is confirmed to be a Saint, he or she gets declared as one.

In-universe, there exists no distinction. Any Saint is said to be a conduit through which the Emperor works his divine miracles. Whether this is true or not doesn't matter, this is how the Church operates and what it tells the faithful. They don't realise any difference between someone like Celestine and someone like Sebastian Thor (if there actually is one!), both are treated as the same thing. "Miracles" (quotation marks intended) can take many forms, after all.

And out-of-universe, we just don't know, given that anything we actually get to read is just as twisted by propaganda, legend and half-truths, open to our interpretation.

He was a still-living 800 years old human by the time justice finally caught up to him. Well, he was a saint in some respects since normal humans don't live that long. A saint of CHAOS. Unless you're saying Saint Celestine and a saint of Chaos are one and the same. (...which I guess could be true in some respects depending on what Celestine and the Emperor actually are, although I doubt that's what you were aiming for)

I guess that would be good enough grounds to remove him ... him being the undead and everything

Back on how big the Warp Storm is ... apparently 100's of Chapters were affected but only 30 were tainted. How close are these Astartes homeworlds, it just seems a bit err ott?

Woe betide any race that gets near this piece of the Imperium, with at least 130 Astartes Homeworlds, ok 130 minus the ones that turned during the Abyssal Crusade.

Over a dozen star systems were engulfed by that warp storm (named Warp Storm Dionys)

I wouldn't be surprised if the chaos gods themselves created it as part of the overall plan to get all these marines turned to Chaos.

That's a big ass Warp Storm.

But from what I can make out, not even the Eye has that many and surely it's not as big as the Eye

And let me count from the map, Ruins of Caliban, but that moves about, and Medusa, that's not all of them more than likely but that's two.

I guess my fragile little mind can't comprehend something with that magnitude and space

Well, the eye is a permanent fixture. A warp storm is just temporary, I suppose.

TiamatRoar wrote:He was a still-living 800 years old human by the time justice finally caught up to him. Well, he was a saint in some respects since normal humans don't live that long. A saint of CHAOS.

So? Dante of the Blood Angels is at least 1.100 years of age - that doesn't make him an agent of Chaos either. The Imperium is in possession of a technology called rejuvenation, able to significantly prolong the lives of those it deems valuable (Space Marines, Battle Sisters, Inquisitors) or who are merely very powerful and influential (nobility).

Also, if Lexicanum is to be believed, Basilius was "long-deceased" when the Marines returned - at least according to the newest source on the subject.

Note that I am not discounting the possibility of Basilius having been an agent of Chaos. I just don't see any indication for it.
It should be noted further that both accounts of Basilius fate (executed or already dead) are still equally valid. For better or worse, this franchise does not offer us "irrefutable truths" - only possibilities we may speculate over.

TiamatRoar wrote:Unless you're saying Saint Celestine and a saint of Chaos are one and the same. (...which I guess could be true in some respects depending on what Celestine and the Emperor actually are, although I doubt that's what you were aiming for)

Celestine being a benign Warp Spirit conjured by the emotions of the faithful actually happens to be my currently favoured theory - followed by the accounts of Celestine's deeds being obscured by legend and propaganda.

Pilau Rice wrote:That's a big ass Warp Storm.

During the Age of Apostasy, Warp Storps have isolated an entire Segmentum from Terra - which came to be Bucharis' realm, who preached that Terra was lost and Gathalamor would be the new center of humanity.

This actually makes it another reason for why Basilius' judgement would feel much more suitable to occur during the AoA...

TiamatRoar wrote:


Oh, and he didn't command those space marines nor was he their master. Instead, they agreed to his demands due to the circumstances involved. Big difference.

From the Wiki you directed me to (also repeated on Lexi):

His "Puritas Divisions" of the faithful included several Chapters of Space Marines, each of which was extremely fierce in their vigilance; wherever a mutant or Chaos Cultist was found, an execution would immediately follow, regardless of age, sex, station or circumstance.

Seems to me like the Ecc has some SM Chapters hopping on the church bus.

 Psienesis wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:


Oh, and he didn't command those space marines nor was he their master. Instead, they agreed to his demands due to the circumstances involved. Big difference.

From the Wiki you directed me to (also repeated on Lexi):

His "Puritas Divisions" of the faithful included several Chapters of Space Marines, each of which was extremely fierce in their vigilance; wherever a mutant or Chaos Cultist was found, an execution would immediately follow, regardless of age, sex, station or circumstance.

Seems to me like the Ecc has some SM Chapters hopping on the church bus.

Ah, I thought you were referring to the Judged that were sent on the Abyssal Crusade.

In the case of the above, yea, there was something going on there, though we don't have any specific details (like what the heck is a "puritas divisions", anyways?). I imagine it was either an unofficial capacity or similar (but definitely not exact, given that this is the ecclesiarchy, not the military) to how a warmaster has over-arching command over space marines when there's a crusade going on. Likely both. Which goes to show how corrupt the whole thing probably was from the very beginning. (Just as planned, I imagine).

 Lynata wrote:
Warp Storms have isolated an entire Segmentum from Terra - which came to be Bucharis' realm, who preached that Terra was lost and Gathalamor would be the new center of humanity.

This actually makes it another reason for why Basilius' judgement would feel much more suitable to occur during the AoA...

But that was Warp Stoms and not a single one wasn't it? This just seems mental.

If it were during the AoA, wouldn't it have made Bucharis less of a figure, story telling wise? Also an issue would come up with Space Marines siding with Basilius over Bucharis.

From the sounds of it, it seems similar to the "Genetic Purity Squads" that the Sisters/Arbites maintain on worlds throughout the Imperium, where they test your genes for signs of unacceptable deviation... just done by Space Marines.

Which is stranger still, as this was M37, and so the Sisters should have been readily available.

Maybe it included sisters, too. The Space Marines were just one part of the wider Puritas Divisiones.

This wouldn't be the last time the ecclesiarchy combined so many armed forces of the Imperium, either. Forutnately the latest time it happened, the guy who did it was actually a good guy (Umberto, I think? His tomb is defended in the Legion of the Damned novel IIRC)

Hmm, I wonder who they would be.

Crimson Fists old fluff had them as being a bit dubious and were responsible for the destruction of two Chapters, but that was more for the Inquisition then the Ecclesiarchy/High Lords.

Wouldn't that be a twist seeing as how the Imperial Fists and the Black Templars were involved in ending Vandire's reign.

TiamatRoar wrote:In the case of the above, yea, there was something going on there, though we don't have any specific details (like what the heck is a "puritas divisions", anyways?). I imagine it was either an unofficial capacity or similar (but definitely not exact, given that this is the ecclesiarchy, not the military) to how a warmaster has over-arching command over space marines when there's a crusade going on.

The Astartes occasionally form alliances or councils for specific events or tasks, another example being the "Astartes Praeses", who assembled to guard the Imperium against invasion from the Eye of Terror. I would probably file this "Puritas Division" under the same category. Even the "Deathwatch" could be said to fall under this umbrella, although its role as the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Xenos obviously makes it appear somewhat more official.

On a sidenote, I'm not sure a Saint would not supercede the organisational limitations of the Adeptus Ministorum. The clergy are merely agents propagating the Emperor's faith and doing his work, whereas the High Lords are His actual representatives. A recognised Saint, however, acts as an avatar of the Emperor, which is probably why even the High Lords would give in to his or her demands. Hence both the Inquisition as well as the Ecclesiarchy going through so much trouble and debate before declaring one. Once a Saint is empowered, it's very, very difficult to object their commands.

Pilau Rice wrote:But that was Warp Stoms and not a single one wasn't it? This just seems mental.

Fortunately, Lexicanum has directly quoted that piece of fluff rather than having an editor give a potentially biased summary.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Plague_of_Unbelief
(prepare for ridiculous levels of Space Wolf plot armour, though. you have been warned!)

tl;dr - yes, multiple Warp Storms. That being said, perhaps the "single" one was just a series of Warp Storms in close proximity as well? From how interstellar travel between Imperial worlds was described, there's a series of safe and pre-mapped passages rather than ships jumping around where they want, already limiting possible pathways. Then you occasionally have a Warp Storm engulfing a single planet, or sometimes an entire system. Why not have one that engulfs a whole series of systems? When you only have X pathways, and all of them are blocked by a similar-looking phenomenon, you may well believe it's the same one when it's a series of individual events.
Just another theory, ofc, but perhaps this makes it easier to swallow.

Pilau Rice wrote:If it were during the AoA, wouldn't it have made Bucharis less of a figure, story telling wise? Also an issue would come up with Space Marines siding with Basilius over Bucharis.

I don't think it would, just like Bucharis didn't lessen Vandire's reign. The Imperium is huge, and the Plague of Unbelief lasted quite a bit - even after Vandire's death it supposedly took the Imperium centuries to re-stabilise, with all the corruption and isolation that was going on.
As for the Space Marines, I think this could have been avoided by letting both events take place in different corners of the splintered IoM. The people in Segmentum Ultima didn't have any clue what was going on with Bucharis in Segmentum Pacificus, for example.

 Lynata wrote:

tl;dr - yes, multiple Warp Storms. That being said, perhaps the "single" one was just a series of Warp Storms in close proximity as well? From how interstellar travel between Imperial worlds was described, there's a series of safe and pre-mapped passages rather than ships jumping around where they want, already limiting possible pathways. Then you occasionally have a Warp Storm engulfing a single planet, or sometimes an entire system. Why not have one that engulfs a whole series of systems? When you only have X pathways, and all of them are blocked by a similar-looking phenomenon, you may well believe it's the same one when it's a series of individual events.
Just another theory, ofc, but perhaps this makes it easier to swallow.

Looking at the bit in the Codex again it seems to suggest that this one moved through the warp, affecting areas as it went, as it says 'those homeworlds in its path'. So, I am a little more content.

 Lynata wrote:
I don't think it would, just like Bucharis didn't lessen Vandire's reign. The Imperium is huge, and the Plague of Unbelief lasted quite a bit - even after Vandire's death it supposedly took the Imperium centuries to re-stabilise, with all the corruption and isolation that was going on.
As for the Space Marines, I think this could have been avoided by letting both events take place in different corners of the splintered IoM. The people in Segmentum Ultima didn't have any clue what was going on with Bucharis in Segmentum Pacificus, for example.

I meant Vandire sorry, I got mixed up between the two. Bucharis was after Vandire, anyhoo, I see what you mean.

I took it as space marines being accused and rather than being wiped out wholesale, took option B off the table. Then, after a couple centuries of constant fighting and watching atrocities and watching their chapters get slaughtered, the survivors limped back in filled with some "rightous" fury. They make some "accusations" in the right corners and are believed, and boom-bada-bing, the guy who sent them into that nightmare is dead and extremely buried, and they are raised back up on their high pedestal.