Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hello everyone! So, I'm a relative newbie to the game, but yesterday I was loaned some models at my LGS so I could play a 1500 point game of Eldar vs Grey Knights.

...I got trounced, hard, but I can't kind of help but feel I might've gotten cheesed. My opponent never let me look at his codex, so I'm a little suspicious, and I thought I'd bring my questions here.

His list was, with no real specifics towards wargear -

Kaldor Draigo
Inquisitor Coteaz
10 Paladins

5x GKs in Razorback with...Autocannon? Str 7 AP 4 Heavy 4 rending?

5x GKs in Razorback with ^ That thing.

So, my questions are as thus:

Sword terminators have a 4+ invul at all times? :s
4 Paladins have 36'' Str 7 AP 4 Assault 4 cannons? (With rending?)
Draigo has a 2+ Invul save? D:
Paladins take an apothecary that gives them FnP?

And I guess Grey Knights get a psychic power that lets them ignore cover? :s (Every turn they'd get prescienced, then something that let them fire overwatch at full BS, and then given the ability to ignore cover.)

I'm sorry for my ignorance, and if grey knights REALLY do all that then...Wow. If not, though, I'd appreciate knowing so I can either correct this person or just avoid playing him. Thanks!

Unfortunately, these questions are not something we can answer. This website is not a replacement for codex/rulebook.

That being said, if somebody does something and you ask about it and they refuse to show you, they are more than likely cheating.

If they do try to show you, and cannot, then it is more likely an oops, I screwed that up moment.

I see people answer questions all the time on how things work, I don't really see how clarifying with a yes or no is replacing a codex...

But alright. Thanks I guess?

Nemesis force weapons invuln bonus only works in CC.

Psycannons are not 36" range but otherwise their profile is very close to that.

He very well may have rolled those three powers with a ML3 Psyker, but your opponent did not have a ML3 Psyker.

Driago has a 2+/3++.

An apothecary indeed does grant FNP.

Your best best is to read the Rulebook, read the Codex, and read the relevant FAQs.

So basically, go throw more money at GW for a codex I don't want, or download it illegally.

'K.

If he did all that, definitely don't play him anymore. He totally cheated.

Eissel wrote:
So basically, go throw more money at GW for a codex I don't want, or download it illegally.

'K.

Or borrow his. Or glance at the one in the store.

I can't say I like your attitude. I answered your questions.

Just ask him to show you any rules you don't understand. If he is playing it straight he should have no problem showing you. GK however can pull a lot of shenanigans, like how every squad is a psyker, including vehicles, and of course psyammo.

Eissel wrote:
I see people answer questions all the time on how things work, I don't really see how clarifying with a yes or no is replacing a codex...

But alright. Thanks I guess?

People do, but they are not supposed to.

yes he got lots of rules wrong or was cheating, he should know better then lots of those things youmention if he has any experiance.

there is no excuse for not letting you check his rules in his codex, go to a GW store and read the book, no need to buy it.

MOST often people let kaldor drago reroll his powers like a librarian because he is mastery level 2, knows 3 powers 1 of which is hammerhand. This is however entirely a house rule and he should have asked you if he could do this. HOWEVER coteaz MAY reroll 2 psychic powers speccifically as per the FAQ and is mastery level 2.

his razor backs are, going by the profile you listed fitted with the ASSAULT cannon that with psybolt ammo does indeed bump up to strength 7 with the profile you listed.

Sword termies have a 5+ invunerable. the 4+ applies ONLY against melee attacks.

Kaldor draigo has a 2+ armour save and 3+ invunerable from his storm shield.

Other then Psycannons beeing 24 inch range they ARE str 7 AP 4 rending that are either assault 2 or heavy 4 and paladins ARE relentless and thus able to move and shoot heavy weapons AND charge with them. it sounds like what your opponent did IS possible if you cant identify where his psychic powers came from.

NickOnwezen wrote:
MOST often people let kaldor drago reroll his powers like a librarian because he is mastery level 2, knows 3 powers 1 of which is hammerhand.

I don't know how they do things in Holland...but I've never seen Draigo swap his powers. Maybe by "MOST often" you meant "one time in my gaming group"? As a GK player, I would never allow or try to do this--it's definitely cheating.

Actually I personally never encountered it beeing done by people either. I just heard that it was done a lot the last time i played someone with grey knights. I also said what. NO way. But i figured it was worth mentioning that apparently it does happen. that still leaves coteaz with 2 rollable powers though.

As they already said everything appears kosher except the psychic powers, sword saves out of combat and Dragio getting a 2+ invul..

2 out of the 3 powers he used is possible, but Coteaz is only level 2 and I have never seen anyone try to swap Draigo's powers... nothing in any FAQ/Codex states that he can. GK Librarians can, but Draigo is not a GK Librarian. Did he roll for his powers or just announce that he had them?

Taking one of those powers away wasn't going to help much I would assume, that unit is a tough nut to crack... it takes a lot of str 8+ and or ap 2 shooting to bring them down.

The list looks to fit within 1500 pts also upon first glance as well. It's a hard army to beat at 1500 if you don't have an answer for the paladin unit.. it's a scoring unit that takes up 2/3 of the points including the characters.

He definitely pulled some shady stuff on you, I would stay away from any more games with him regardless of what army he played. I don't use Paladins in friendly games as a personal rule, and probably wouldn't play any of my other armies against them in anything but tournament settings.

This sounds like my very first 6th ed game (3rd game playing 40k in general.) Where the dude I played made up stuff on the fly and decided to add wargear he didn't pay for mid game. Needless to say I just don't play against him anymore. Though it is interesting to hear him talk about his armies with his special made up rules =P

You might want to find someone at your FLGS that will actually take the time to teach you the game. A lot of people are more than happy to actually talk to you about what each thing does and how the mechanics work.

Unfortunately you will run into people like this. Don't let that bother you.

I'm gonna actually help the OP. Somebody call the cops!

5x GKs in Razorback with...Autocannon? Str 7 AP 4 Heavy 4 rending?

5x GKs in Razorback with ^ That thing.

They have TL Assault Cannons (24" S6 AP4 Heavy 4 Rending) and bought psybolts to give them +1S. Legit.

Sword terminators have a 4+ invul at all times? :s

Nemesis Force Swords only give a 4+ invul in combat. Otherwise they have the standard 5++.

4 Paladins have 36'' Str 7 AP 4 Assault 4 cannons? (With rending?)

Psycannons. 24" S7 AP4 Heavy 4 Rending. 2 Pallies per 5 can take one.

Draigo has a 2+ Invul save? D:

He has a 2+ from Terminator armor and a 3++ from his storm shield.

Paladins take an apothecary that gives them FnP?

Yep.

And I guess Grey Knights get a psychic power that lets them ignore cover? :s (Every turn they'd get prescienced, then something that let them fire overwatch at full BS, and then given the ability to ignore cover.)

Perfect Timing (a Divination spell) lets a unit's weapons ignore cover. Foreboding (another Divination spell) allows a unit to Overwatch at full BS. However, based on his list, he couldn't have all 3 powers. Coteaz is Mastery Level 2 so only generates 2 powers. Draigo, not being a Librarian, Inquisitor or Coteaz cannot switch his powers out for Divination or anything else.

I'm sorry for my ignorance, and if grey knights REALLY do all that then...Wow. If not, though, I'd appreciate knowing so I can either correct this person or just avoid playing him. Thanks!

Most of that is legit except for the Sword and 3 powers on a Level 2 psyker. Bear in mind, all of those options cost a boat load of points and leave him with very few models and scoring units.

Eissel wrote:
So basically, go throw more money at GW for a codex I don't want, or download it illegally.

'K.

Instead of coping an attitude, you need to understand this forum.

This is for asking rules clarifications when you see something and may not understand, or have a dispute in your group about how to interpret a rule. You however are asking more than that, and asking for a readout of what the GK codex allows without having seen that codex. Meaning asking for rules out of it straight up. It's not clarification.

The simple answer in this situation is to ask to see the codex, and if they will not show it to you simply pack up and stop playing with them. If it's a fluke(they forget, and this is the one time they did, while 99% of the rest of the time they have it) that's one thing, but having it and not letting you see it is a good sign they're screwing you.

I don't think the forum rules (at least as I'm reading them) require every person to own every single Codex. Asking questions about a Codex you don't own is exactly what community forums should be for. Using the forum in place of buying your own codex is entirely unacceptable, but it doesn't appear to be what's happening here.

To answer the original questions, all the ones I know the answer for sure to come down in favor of your opponent NOT cheating. (Grey Knights are very, very powerful.)

To clarify, by the way, sword terminators don't have a 4+ invuln, they have a 5+ invuln (which all termies do) and the nemesis force sword improves any invuln save the bearer has by 1. (Which results in the 4+)

Paladins can indeed take an apothecary.

All of the psychic powers you mention are real psychic powers, which come from the Divination table. Not sure what Draigo's mastery rating is, but if it's high enough to give him 3 rolls on that table, then that's kosher too.

The GKs do indeed have a str 7 ap 4 weapon, but it's a heavy weapon. Terminators, however, have Relentless, so they can still fire it on the move.

In any event, I hope that was some kind of help. Sorry your first game went so terribly. Hope it gets better in the future.

Eissel wrote:
Hello everyone! So, I'm a relative newbie to the game, but yesterday I was loaned some models at my LGS so I could play a 1500 point game of Eldar vs Grey Knights.

...I got trounced, hard, but I can't kind of help but feel I might've gotten cheesed. My opponent never let me look at his codex, so I'm a little suspicious, and I thought I'd bring my questions here.

His list was, with no real specifics towards wargear -

Kaldor Draigo
Inquisitor Coteaz
10 Paladins

5x GKs in Razorback with...Autocannon? Str 7 AP 4 Heavy 4 rending?

5x GKs in Razorback with ^ That thing.

So, my questions are as thus:

Sword terminators have a 4+ invul at all times? :s
4 Paladins have 36'' Str 7 AP 4 Assault 4 cannons? (With rending?)
Draigo has a 2+ Invul save? D:
Paladins take an apothecary that gives them FnP?

And I guess Grey Knights get a psychic power that lets them ignore cover? :s (Every turn they'd get prescienced, then something that let them fire overwatch at full BS, and then given the ability to ignore cover.)

I'm sorry for my ignorance, and if grey knights REALLY do all that then...Wow. If not, though, I'd appreciate knowing so I can either correct this person or just avoid playing him. Thanks!

Lets go over your list.
Sword termis have 4++ in melee. Nowhere else.
4 Paladins can have what you listed, yes. Although the range you listed is wrong.
Razorbacks can be equipped with such a weapon.
No. Draigo doesnt have a 2++
Yes, paladins can have FNP

Coteaz can get a power that gets him and his squad ignore cover. He has to roll for that power though. He cant give them full bs on overwatch. SInce hes a l2 psyker he is also able to cast 2 powers each turn. For future games i suggest you watching him rolling for his random powers. There are a lot of people out there that just pick what they want and steamroll you. Thats not what the system is intended to do.

Although most what you wrote sounds correct, you should suggest your opponent to reread the rules of his models. Especially those of the nemesis force weapons and the draigo entry. Note that draigos sword isnt a typical nemesis force sword while doing that.

I have to agree with Mywik, Draigo's Titansword is a Regular force sword and not a nemesis force sword so even in close combat it does not confer the +1 to invunerable saves. However i might consider that an actual mistake on your opponents part because it IS a bit weird that the sword of the grey knights chapter master is not a nemesis force weapon when they detail grey knight force weapons in the codex. Still it would have only worked against CC attacks even if it DID count as a nemesis force sword so thats a little to many bad reading 'coincedences' going on.

HOWEVER i have to disagree on something aswell. An inquisitor CAN roll on divination and get a 1 to get foreboding which lets a unit roll their full ballistic skill when they overwatch however as foreboding is a blessing it HAS to be cast at the start of the movement phase so you would be well aware that a unit was allowed to overwatch on their full bs before you charged them.

It is possible that your opponent mistakenly assumed that psykers automatically get the primaris power in addition to the normally randomly generated powers, which is how prescience could have gotten in there, too.

 Mywik wrote:

Coteaz can get a power that gets him and his squad ignore cover. He has to roll for that power though. He cant give them full bs on overwatch.

You should be more familiar with the Divination table. One of the powers grants Overwatch at full BS.