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As the title says. I've always loved T-sons from Kaos Mahreens and wondering if its possible to run a Tzeentch-themed, T-sons only army. I would take Ahriman for HQ and T-sons for Troops but other than that.... I'm not sure what to do in terms of tactics.

Obviously I am looking for a fluffy rather than crunchy army but I am wondering if there are any ways to make this fluffy army somewhat work.


Thanks!

Truth be told running a Thousand Sons themed force is possible, but you have to realize something extremely important. Thousand Sons are overpriced aspect warriors. They are good at one thing, one thing only, and are overpriced even for that one thing.

That said -- they are cool as hell. My suggestion is to use two squads of thousand sons, some cultists, and ally in daemons to get pink horrors/Tzeentch heralds. It will not be perfect, but it will cover a lot of bases and will not leave your few cult marines out to dry quite as much. You can approach it, theme wise, from the idea of a Tzeentch cult being led by a Thousand Sons sorcerer.

Well. You could put Tzeentch Marines on a Skyshield for a 3++, thats always fun.

My advice would be to field some armor, because with tanks you don't have to utilize MoT. If you want to make it a bit more fluffy, add daemonic possession to each tank.

Three Vindicators with Possession would really add to your overall 24" threat range.

 minigun762 wrote:
My advice would be to field some armor, because with tanks you don't have to utilize MoT. If you want to make it a bit more fluffy, add daemonic possession to each tank.

Three Vindicators with Possession would really add to your overall 24" threat range.

how would Daemonic Possession be T-sons? I don't remember Magnus doing anything with armor...

If you're worried that the vehicles would be driven by non-rubric marines

At this point I am even entertaining the idea of taking nothing but Sorcerors and T-sons.... I doubt it will work.

 Zaki66 wrote:
At this point I am even entertaining the idea of taking nothing but Sorcerors and T-sons.... I doubt it will work.

It won't.

You'll have nothing to deal with:
Terminators
Hordes
Vehicles
Flyers
Entrenched Marines

The only thing you'll be able to easily handle is Marines standing in the open. Anything else you don't have the weight of fire or the high strength weapons needed to deal with them because your marines cost too much.

I came in 2nd at Gottacon 2013 with a pure Tzeentch list. It can work. Thousand Sons are a specialized unit though and I don't recommend making your entire army a specialist unit.

Here's the list I used.

Ahriman

5 Terminators, Mark of Tzeentch, Combi-meltas

9 Thousand Sons, Rhino, Havoc Launcher, Warpflame Gargoyles
10 Chaos Space Marines, 2 Meltaguns, Mark of Tzeentch, Rhino, Havoc Laucher, Warpflame Gargoyles

Predator Annihilator
Vindicator, Combi-Bolter, Dozer Blade

Daemon Allies

Lord of Change

Minimum size pack of Horrors of Tzeentch

3 Screamers of Tzeentch
4 Flamers of Tzeentch


Thousand Sons are good at more than one thing, remember they are also fearless and have a 4+ invulnerable, in fact forget about the AP3 bolters they're the least important thing about Thousand Sons. Killing 3+ and 4+ armour saves is only one thing they can do. Holding objectives in open ground against AP2 weapons is another. Tarpitting AP2 melee weapons without a lot of attacks is another. P.S. Really pray for doombolt and not Tzeentch's Firestorm. A rhino is a must, for 35 points you gain the ability to focus a lot of force on one section of the table and avoid being hit by small arms (Thousand Sons hate that) for a turn. Havoc+Warpflame lets you spread soul blaze on a different target for cheap.

Ahriman gives you master of deception which is a decent delivery system for Terminators. If you roll more than one you can use it on your infantry in their Rhino to deploy reactively in response to your opponent if you decide to go first, or just outflank if they have something vulnerable in the back end. I think deployment is crucial, I usually prefer to let my opponent deploy first so I can focus my army on one section of theirs and avoid anything in their army that's slow or short ranged. I use the vindicator as board control, to try to make people focus too much on it and react to it.

Mobility is also crucial, if you're mobile you can make sure the majority of your army fights the minority of your opponent's, because quite frankly you're Thousand Sons and you aren't going to beat your opponent in a straight up slug-fest. Try to focus on obliterating threatening or mobile targets with everything you have. A Lord of Change is brilliant for this (I don't think fateweaver is as good without a grimoire and without his warlord trait as an ally, he also can't crack AV14 as effectively). A Lord of Change gives you a massive threat in all phases, is very fluffy, can be anywhere on the board quickly, can deal with enemy flyers (fly behind them and fire away), can land and beat up most things in close combat and gives you force multiplying divination powers.

Screamers are similarly very mobile and can do damage on the move, a big threat to backfield tanks, are *hilarious* if you cast invisibility on them, and can turbo boost in to contest objectives on the last turns of a game. Flamers are also mobile as jump infantry and are very effective at removing things like scouts in ruins, murdering eldar and tau and deterring large units of gaunts and boyz that Thousand Sons would struggle with. Flamers and Screamers can't kill marines, but you don't need them to kill marines, you have Thousand Sons and Ahriman. Ahriman will delete squads of marines by himself. Horrors of Tzeentch aren't bad with their S5 flickering fire or Bolt of Tzeentch but I tend to reserve them and deep strike them onto an objective later in the game.

Thousand Sons also can't deal with armour. You need to think about this. In my list I went with a Predator (much cheaper in this book than the last) for long ranged S9 general anti-tank and a vindicator, terminators/marines with meltas and a Lord of Change to crack open AV14. These things can also crack open 2+ saves, though Ahriman is also capable of that.

For Ahriman I go with the obligatory Tzeentch power, pray for doombolt though Wind of Chaos isn't terrible. Then one in Biomancy hoping for iron arm, if not grab Smite, one in telepathy hoping for invisibility if not grab psychic shriek then the last one typically in biomancy again hoping for enfeeble (combos with warpflame) or endurance. Try to get three witchfires, you're paying points to use three of them may as well use it. Invisibility has all sorts of uses (screamers, anything in cover, making the enemy WS1 in close combat, making your Rhino have a 2+ cover save with smoke launchers) and Iron Arm gives Ahriman eternal warrior.

Anyway, Tzeentch is an extremely fun army and I love it. I love infiltrating terminators, I love all the super fast shooty Daemons, I love the huge amount of psychic firepower.

Last thing, Mark of Tzeentch on the Chaos Marines is strictly for fluff. It will statistically only be worth it if you get wounded eight times by AP3 or lower attacks and get no cover save. Mind though that can happen instantly if you get Heldraked.

1ksons force every infantry model short of terminators to dive for cover and never leave, while the 1ksons themselves treat anywhere on the board as if it were 4+ cover. And their sergeants come with a 4++ and a force weapon. That sounds like the beginning of a viable army to me.

All you've got to do is add in some vehicle killers and something to dig infantry out of cover, and you've got yourself a list. Given that both termies and oblits can do both of these really well, and that you've got several options on top of this besides, you have many ways to make this kind of list viable.

If I had to do it myself, I'd either ahriman-infiltrate a bunch of 4++ termies forward, or I'd start breaking out the land raiders (which fix the 1ksons mobility problem as well).

 Ailaros wrote:
1ksons force every infantry model short of terminators to dive for cover and never leave, while the 1ksons themselves treat anywhere on the board as if it were 4+ cover. And their sergeants come with a 4++ and a force weapon. That sounds like the beginning of a viable army to me.

All you've got to do is add in some vehicle killers and something to dig infantry out of cover, and you've got yourself a list. Given that both termies and oblits can do both of these really well, and that you've got several options on top of this besides, you have many ways to make this kind of list viable.

If I had to do it myself, I'd either ahriman-infiltrate a bunch of 4++ termies forward, or I'd start breaking out the land raiders (which fix the 1ksons mobility problem as well).

I see your point but.... tanks and Oblitz aren't..... fluffy....

I'm liking the Terminator ideas though.

You won't be able to field as many 1ksons as you like so they'll always be grossly outnumbered. They sound great on paper until you see that they cost as much as terminators but without the survivability.

 MWHistorian wrote:
You won't be able to field as many 1ksons as you like so they'll always be grossly outnumbered. They sound great on paper until you see that they cost as much as terminators but without the survivability.

I'm thinking Oblitz with MoT, Termies with MoT, Ahriman and filling the rest with T-sons. Oblitz and Termies (Combi weapons?) will deal with hordes and armor while T-sons can tarpit power weapon squads / rape train MEQ.

I'll need to test that out but as long as I'm not faced against horde assault (Orks, Nids), I think it should work rather fine. I think the fine balance would come in where the T-sons are TROOPS who are actually able to deal with enemy ELITES and other specialists. My own Elites and specialists can pick apart their troops in return.

Why arent vehicles fluffy for the 1k Sons? Of course they are. The Sons where a legion and all that entails. You cant have a legion with just boltgun armed infantry. Read the fluff, they use armor, terminators and even assault marines.

Flamers, horrors, and screamers cover the main deficiencies of the sons (armor and hordes), are tzeentch themed, and break up the sea of blue models with spots of color.

While most 1k artwork portrays a row of glowy-eyed robots marching across a field they have plenty of vehicles. A land raider pouring out a squad of rapid firing assaulting psykering rubrics can be surprisingly effective.

I think with the right units such as the ones mentioned above, T Sons can be very effective when used well.

You will need some method of horde control and anti cover weaponry which terminators and obliterators can provide.

While I see your point that obliterators aren't fluffy, could they not be T Sons who have been subjected to the flesh change (I think this was a pre rubric thing, but who knows, they could still be some of them about)?

I mean, not all of them have to devolve into spawn do they?

Also, as others have said, the T Sons are still a Legion of sorts and would totally have access to all the armoured vehicles that entails.

Finally, for cover clearance, consider a Heldrake. It may not seem fluffy, but I am sure T Sons sorcerors are not above binding a Tzeentch daemon into a mechanical dragon are they? After all the Lord of Changes head looks kinda similar to the Drake head.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also as others have said, consider Tzeentch daemon allies for additional firepower and a change from an army of blue marines.

They are completely in line with the fluff as well.

A note regarding the fluffiness of obliterators.
According to the Thousand Sons fluff on Lexicanum, the Thousand Sons legion made extensive use of units from the legio cybernetica.
The obliterators would represent a more Tzeentchian aspect of that doctrine.

Hell, Obliterators could just be represented as Sorcerors that specialize in far more direct forms of destruction. Just because they're not taking psychic tests doesn't mean that they're not throwing around massively powerful spells...

Hmmm.... great ideas guys! Thanks a lot.

I guess I could think about vehicles at this point then. Even Obliterators. Terminators and Tzeentch Daemons are definitely in.

On a side note, I hear everyone saying T-sons are a legion but I thought they aren't exactly a legion anymore. After Battle of the Fang, didn't the T-sons get split up into individual warbands like World Eaters?

True, but they are still equiped the same and fight the same and hold the same ideals and doctrines as the Legion, even if they are in smaller units.