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I'm at a loss for trying to decide which is more integral to an ork list; lootas or dakkajets? They both fill basically the same niche, but it seems like flyers are becoming worthless against tau and eldar. I don't have much experience with dakkajets but I know lootas are amazing. What are your thoughts?

Both.

I'd do lootaz primarily, only cause I feel the Dakka jet needs a weird boy.

They do take up different spots in the FoC so both is the better way to go lol

I've found Lootas to be pretty amazing. But only against AV10/11/12 vehicles and high toughness stuff. Against MEQ for instance they're pretty meh

No idea about Dakkajets, only used fliers a handful of times and CBF with them really

Dakkajets are terrible. They die easy, are almost as expensive as 10 lootas, and except for 1 turn a game they do almost no dakka in comparison. Thus forcing you to take a worthless HQ - Wierdboy - to try and get more WAAAAGH! out of it.

Vineheart, that's pretty much how I was feeling with them. I think they should be around the pricerange of no more than 100 pts with the upgrades to be worth it. I have run the big 3 flyers many times, and they just get shot down like nothing against tau and eldar nowadays.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Dakkajets are terrible. They die easy, are almost as expensive as 10 lootas, and except for 1 turn a game they do almost no dakka in comparison. Thus forcing you to take a worthless HQ - Wierdboy - to try and get more WAAAAGH! out of it.

I don't see Wierdboys as useless, yes there are better HQ choices, but they're a fun character to run, and can be beneficial to your army. Especially Old Zogwort, he just needs a major price reduction.

Weirdboyz are definitely useless. They seem fun, until you actually try them in a game. Due to FAQ Zogwort is even more useless.

herpguy wrote:
Weirdboyz are definitely useless. They seem fun, until you actually try them in a game. Due to FAQ Zogwort is even more useless.

When you're not playing competitive (which I haven't really) it's fun to play with such an unpredictable unit. I thought that about the FAQ, but I asked one of the guys at my local GW store, and he clarified the ruling for me. Just because he has a BS 0, it doesn't affect his casting.

 Dakkamite wrote:
I've found Lootas to be pretty amazing. But only against AV10/11/12 vehicles and high toughness stuff. Against MEQ for instance they're pretty meh

No idea about Dakkajets, only used fliers a handful of times and CBF with them really

I find them quite awesome against MEQ...

I mean if you are lucky you get a F Ton of shots... that wound a marine on a 2+ and since a marine can save almost anything the Ap doesn matter...
A Squad of 10 Lootas almost always kills 2 tacticals in a salvo..

But that still meh. My plague marines can do same on rapid fire having 10 bolter shoots and 4 plasmas.

i run both. they are the bread and butter of most ork armys!

 randomtoaster wrote:

herpguy wrote:
Weirdboyz are definitely useless. They seem fun, until you actually try them in a game. Due to FAQ Zogwort is even more useless.

When you're not playing competitive (which I haven't really) it's fun to play with such an unpredictable unit. I thought that about the FAQ, but I asked one of the guys at my local GW store, and he clarified the ruling for me. Just because he has a BS 0, it doesn't affect his casting.

That GW guy needs to read the FAQ, it states that 2 of the weirdboy powers count as shooting attacks (he cannot shoot) and he has to expend warp charge points using them, so basically if he gets one of those powers he wastes a turn.

herpguy wrote:
Weirdboyz are definitely useless. They seem fun, until you actually try them in a game. Due to FAQ Zogwort is even more useless.

weirdboyz are great! 4/6 things are useful! dang for orks thats great odds!
you get like 4units and mix them together you make a weirdboy! just get a warphead and hes great!
such good support for your orks.
(i only use one when i run 3 dakkajets 54 shots being used more than once a game is amaing!)
also works well with greentide along with the dakkajets.

As much as I love Dakkajets (in theory, never really used them), Lootas are just better. You will ALWAYS have more shots with your lootas, they're arguably harder to kill (if you put them behind an Aegis, which you SHOULD), and they're more consistent. (You're lucky if you can get fliers to shoot at something EVERY TURN.)

Granted, Dakkajets have better BS and are harder to hit, but nothing is like trying to rip 10 Lootas from behind an Aegis Defense Line when they have a 4+ cover or a 2+ when going to ground. And shooting orks never worry about going to ground.

I'm running Loota Castle this weekend.

FOR and Aegis stuffed with Lootas, Dakka Jet as backup, SAG mek in the church tower

Not hugely efficient, as there are a lot of ways to dispatch them especially with the uptick in ignores cover, but it should be fun...

PS. Serpent Shields are a very ugly method of dispatching Lootas behind an Aegis. My wife plays Eldar

Solosam47 wrote:I'd do lootaz primarily, only cause I feel the Dakka jet needs a weird boy.

They do take up different spots in the FoC so both is the better way to go lol

Vineheart01 wrote:Dakkajets are terrible. They die easy, are almost as expensive as 10 lootas, and except for 1 turn a game they do almost no dakka in comparison. Thus forcing you to take a worthless HQ - Wierdboy - to try and get more WAAAAGH! out of it.

The dakkajet+warphead combo complete nonsense, which really needs to stop spreading. One or even two warpheads are not a a great addition to dakkajets. Two warpheads still have a 20% chance of not rolling a single additional Waagh! over the course of a six turn game, assuming they make all their psychic test, and neither the Dakkajets nor the Warpheads are killed somewhere along the road. Even if you do get an additional Waaagh!, it might be on the turn when could have just used your regular one, or some dakkajets are shooting at units which would be killed without the Waaagh!, if they aren't unable to shoot/off the table anyways. At the same time the warheads cost you two HQ slots, points and are very likely kill you own boyz, themselves, or teleport his one of your units in unfavorable situations. Just taking Wazzdakka and turbo-boosting him all game long while shooting his dakka kannon is always going to do more damage than that additional Waagh! which might not happen in the first place. I have played enough games with them to see that warpheads are not a competitive choice at all, no matter the number of dakkajets in your army.

/rant

The dakkajet itself is very useful, but only ever in addition to lootaz. It can reach where lootaz cannot, and with 9 TL BS3 shots is really reliable at taking out whatever you are aiming it at, and is pretty much the best anti-air shooting we have.
Also to discount Vineheart's and ShadowMageAlpha's comments about "no dakka in comparison":
Against T4 models (for simplicity, let's ignore armor, as AP is the same):
1 dakkajet with additional supa-shoota and fighta-ace(130 points) will get 6.75 hits, 5.625 wounds.
9 lootaz (135 points) get 6 hits, 5 wounds.

When shooting at regular infantry, the dakkajet is better, when shooting at high toughness or vehicles, lootaz are better due to higher strength, however the dakkajet has the option to simply double up once per game to really remove something you need gone, the lootas might randomly do better or worse.
Also note that a dakkajet might pin his targets, which doesn't happen often, but when it does, really messes up your opponents plans. Especially the dreaded Tau aren't unlikely to fail pinning tests.

I always alternate between adding jets and lootaz to my army, for every 15 lootaz, I add another dakkajet before stacking more lootaz. That way I get the best of both worlds.

Pretty much what Jidmah said.

You trade fire power for more utility.

Personally I like jets because I run kult of speed and lootas are just too slow. I got two jets.

herpguy wrote:

 randomtoaster wrote:

herpguy wrote:
Weirdboyz are definitely useless. They seem fun, until you actually try them in a game. Due to FAQ Zogwort is even more useless.

When you're not playing competitive (which I haven't really) it's fun to play with such an unpredictable unit. I thought that about the FAQ, but I asked one of the guys at my local GW store, and he clarified the ruling for me. Just because he has a BS 0, it doesn't affect his casting.

That GW guy needs to read the FAQ, it states that 2 of the weirdboy powers count as shooting attacks (he cannot shoot) and he has to expend warp charge points using them, so basically if he gets one of those powers he wastes a turn.

The FAQ is unambiguous, all it states about that is a question asking if it can be ignored, its not actually asking if he can use them, and it states that frazzle and zzap include a few exceptions to the normal shooting rules, since they auto hit. A BS is not needed

Units with a BS of 0 are explicitly forbidden from making any shooting attacks, even if they do not require a BS (this includes templates, novas and blasts).
Frazzle, zzap and 'eadbanger are shooting attacks. As long as your BS is 0, you may not shoot, even when auto-hitting. The Tyranid FAQ explicitly asks this (as they have a unique BS0 psyker, too), and the answer is clearly "No".

Jidmah, great breakdown. The main issue I have is that dakkajets are very much out in the open. As it is, I have has almost zero success with even av 12 flyers against tau and eldar. A dakkajet loses 100% of its effectiveness if shot down, lootas take it percentage wise. Also, dakkajets will spend at least one turn in reserves not shooting, and likely at least another turn flying off the board.

herpguy wrote:
Jidmah, great breakdown. The main issue I have is that dakkajets are very much out in the open. As it is, I have has almost zero success with even av 12 flyers against tau and eldar. A dakkajet loses 100% of its effectiveness if shot down, lootas take it percentage wise. Also, dakkajets will spend at least one turn in reserves not shooting, and likely at least another turn flying off the board.

Dakkajet is more survivable than lootas.

Assuming that 10 marines shoot 10 times at lootas who got 3+ cover save. 1.38 lootas die

If marines rapidfire (20 shots) dakkajet it loses 0.55 hullpoints and dakkajet doesn't evade.

Also it is pretty easy to keep dakkajets on board with 6x4' table.

You pretty much get that turn back by calling your Waaagh! (which isn't much use for anything else unless fielding Ghazghkull Thrakka), and lootaz also lose efficiency when the game starts out with night fighting. It's also a half-full/half-empty way to look at thinks. A dakkajet will keep 100% performance until it becomes a crater, while lootaz will lose performance before being wiped out.

While I have no idea about tau (no one here plays any), pretty much any eldar shooting that takes out a dakkajet would also blow away the same unit of lootaz. AFAIK the only unit with skyfire are warwalkers, and a dakkajet can easily take out a whole unit the turn it comes on. If he is bringing crimson hunters, you should be on same terms in the air, whoever comes on first gets shot down by the other. Both can also be taken out by lootaz, that's why it's important to bring both.
In addition dakkajets (and, amazingly, burna bommers) absolutely murder eldar infantry models, so I wouldn't want to miss them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 illuknisaa wrote:
Also it is pretty easy to keep dakkajets on board with 6x4' table.

True, but if there is nothing to shoot at in your front arc (not unlikely with highly mobile eldar forces), it's usually better just to leave the board.

Only upside to the dakkajet vs lootas is dakkajets are more predictable. You pretty much will land 7/9 of those shots if not more, while 10 lootas that dont roll a 3 for shots will usually only land just as many. But then it goes back to the other factors: Lootas CAN hit more, odds cant factor in a bit of luck or dice bumping each other and lootas are genuinely harder to take out unless a flamer finds them or mass of ignore cover shots (i wouldnt even say any barrage or Tau pi plates are autocounter since they usually only hit 2-4 lootas anyway).

Then theres the other factor. Lootas S7, Dakkajets S6. Price is almost identical for an insanely different level of strength and rate of fire

Dakkajets are useless, despite being one awesome as hell model to look at.

I just showed that the rate of fire is almost the same, how can you keep claiming that? For every time you fire three shots you will also fire one shot once. The ability to get lucky only ever is an argument for a unit if the odds are in your favor, or you are using loaded dice. Since the odds are split in this case and I assume that you are a legit player, there is no advantage in rolling d3 shots over flat two shots.

The claims about survivability are also just as wrong:
When getting shot by bolters, it takes 108 shots to take down a dakkajet, while it takes only 41 shots to kill the same points worth in lootaz in area terrain, 81 when they go to ground and lose half their efficiency, which is still half as survivable as a dakkajet jinking. You'd have to go to ground behind an ADL to get the same amount of survivability as a dakkajet. And if you factor in an ADL in the survivability of lootaz, you also need to factor in its point cost, not to mention that it's a lot easier to negate cover than it is to negate "hard to hit".

So please don't keep repeating things that are so obviously wrong. They have about the same rate of fire, are about the same strength and have similar survivability. One is better at taking out big targets but stationary, the other more reliable and mobile. If you use lootaz, there is no reason not to use dakkajets and vice versa. Against marine armies, there is literally no difference, since next to none of their options care about the S6/7 jump.

The only reason I can think of for not using dakkajets is a metagame where you are guaranteed to face long-ranged anti-air every game.

I use lootas as solid anti air and anti av 12. I use dakkajets to bolster this and as a great way to pick off smaller squads that have taken damage. Carrying multiple threats makes for hard choices, pretty much standard ork fare.

I'm in this camp

Jidmah / Vine:
I think the survivability issue is anecdotal rather than mathematic. Taking them as equal threats from a firepower standpoint, your opponent will likely see a lurking dakkajet in his backfield as a greater threat than Lootas in your own. Reflecting this our (my) experience is that my jets turn into fireballs before my lootas are running. So, Jidmah, i dont think that you are calculating a jet's perceived threat and its different board position. Vine, seems like jidmah may have you on the math though. I'll think about it when ive had more sleep. We are comparing a wrench to a screwdriver anyway. Speaking of a screwdriver... Is anyone else thirsty?

Land raiders have the tendency to be smoking wrecks around turn 3 as well (because no one like assault terminators in their lines), while whirlwinds usually last to the very end of a game. A land raider is still more survivable than a rhino with fireworks on top

If your opponent is turning your dakkajet into a fireball ASAP, he is not shooting anything else. If you don't bring that dakkajet, those units are not simply going to shoot nothing.
In addition, you have control over how threatening something looks. I bet everyone of us has turbo-boosted a lonely deffkopta right behind a manticore/predator/ghost ark/fire prism just to force a reaction out of your opponent, even though you know exactly that the single TL rokkit isn't very likely to anything at all. You can do the same with a dakkajet, and with 30" (more like 26" in reality) you can force your opponent to move weapons he usually doesn't want to move, or make him shoot weapons at the dakkajet, which otherwise would be very efficient at taking out boyz (think wave serpents/dakka preds).

Every unit dies to shooting, especially when it's part of the ork codex. Any opponent worth two teef is going to shoot more dangerous things before less dangerous things. Whether a unit is killed sooner or later has absolutely nothing to do with it's survivability. Survivability only tells you how many shots it can take before folding in comparison with other units.

i would argue that survivability tells you how long something will survive, its how tough it is that dictates how much damage it can take. i feel that lootas are much more survivable because i always put the behind a defense line, go to ground then use them for anti air, Therefore any shooting that dosent ignore cover is wasted.
while a dakkajet is being shot at by everything that has skyfire on my opponents next turn.

however, i regularly use both, and occasionally in conjunction

As shown above, even if you go to ground in area terrain, you are exactly as survivable as the dakkajet.
When you look at the 6th edition codices (including necrons), and at armies actually built from them, you'll find a lot more weapons with ignore cover than skyfire. Outside of other fliers and the tau codex, all skyfire options are expensive and/or useless against non-fliers. Since they are not invincible and their range is not unlimited, it's quite possible to either take them out before your jet comes on, or simply stay out of their range.