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I know there's a huge discussion about characters with infiltrate joining a unit that doesn't have it. This is something similar. Assuming an IC does not have infiltrate, but a unit does:
a) Can the IC even deploy in the unit to begin with?
b) Can the IC + unit deploy in the neutral table area as per the infiltrate rule?
c) If kept in reserves, can the IC + unit outflank?

I'm also interested if c) changes for units that simply have Outflank. I'm currently trying to evaluate if it's even really possible to have character support for Striking Scorpions (beyond Karandras) or Shining Spears without giving up their special deployment rules.

pg 38 has the answer to all three. There's not really a discussion about this as it's very very clear.

a) no.
b) no.
c) no.

The IC can be deployed with the unit, but only if they opt to not infiltrate.

And no, they cant outflank.

clively wrote:
pg 38 has the answer to all three. There's not really a discussion about this as it's very very clear.

a) no.
b) no.
c) no.

Thanks much--I'm at work away from my books, so I was just trying to think out if it was an idea worth trying- obviously not. Really sad in the case of Shining Spears, since outflank seems like the only worthwhile, and they'll always have to do it on their own vs. with an Autarch. Back to the drawing board on that idea, I guess.

Eihnlazer wrote:
The IC can be deployed with the unit, but only if they opt to not infiltrate.

There is no option to not infiltrate. They must always be deployed after the rest of your force. What you can is deploy the character normally, then when deploying infiltrators, deploy them within 2" of the character.

And no, they cant outflank.

Yes they can.
Characters can join units that are in reserve (p39)

 grendel083 wrote:
There is no option to not infiltrate. They must always be deployed after the rest of your force. What you can is deploy the character normally, then when deploying infiltrators, deploy them within 2" of the character.

I thought I could only join units in the movement phase, or on deployment of the IC? If I can just join up a Spiritseer to my Scorpions in the deployment zone (actually a little into the neutral area as the Scorpions could be out of it and still within 2") that would actually be pretty cool. I'm trying to do an army based on Spiritseers w/ Aspects, so I'm handing out buffs to my elites vs. my Guardians. My main issue is how few aspect units I can realistically dump a seer into-- dire avengers, fire dragons, and dark reapers are in (maybe scorpions too if I can still infiltrate even with limitations), but hawks, (deep strike, skyleap, jump packs) banshees, (acrobatic) shining spears, (jetbike) and spiders (jet pack) all seem to lose something pretty big when I do this.

Yes they can.
Characters can join units that are in reserve (p39)

Interesting. So I could outflank with the Autarch in the unit, and show up on a 2+ turn 2 if I wanted if you're correct here. I realize none of these ideas I'm going for are actually good, I'm more looking for legal and novel.

You cannot join spiritseer to scorpions, as you join an ic to a unit, not the other way around. they will not join to your end of movement phase.

You can always attach an IC to any unit before the game starts. So when you decide on deployment you decide where your IC goes. He could go with a unit in reserve.

The questions now becomes: If that unit has the Outflank special rule, does it confer to the IC attached?

If the case is no, then the unit as a whole must move on from reserves as normal.

If the answer is yes, then the HQ/IC can move on to the board with that unit because their rule confers.

Again, that isnt what the rule on page 39 states. It states you join during deployment by being deployed in coherency with a unit. YOu do not join BEFORE deployment.

Outflank does confer, just fine.

 Icculus wrote:
You can always attach an IC to any unit before the game starts. So when you decide on deployment you decide where your IC goes.

This is incorrect. If you meant to say something else*, then your phrasing was very confusing and obfuscating.
*like, "An IC can deploy within coherency of a unit, and then count as joined once the game begins."

okay, then let me quote the rulebook page 39

"An independent character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in reserve, by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined"

So that clears that up pretty well. Furthermore, also on page 39. let me quote this.

While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.

and

"Special Rules
When an independent character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit."

which is interesting because if we look at the Infiltrate special rule it clearly says

"Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last......etc, etc."

The same goes for Scout.

So an IC can be attached to a unit in reserve and Scout or Infiltrate with them


EDIT:

At the end of the Infiltrate special rule there is an addendum

An independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment

I don't think that quotation is saying what you think it's saying. You, Icculus, said,

 Icculus wrote:
You can always attach an IC to any unit before the game starts. So when you decide on deployment you decide where your IC goes.

while the rule you quoted from the BRB says,

An independent character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it

There's an important distinction in terms, which I've underlined in the two quotes.
The underlined in your quote says something different than what the BRB says. And since people get confused frequently by this issue, it's important to word your statements carefully. ICs CAN start the game with a unit. They CANNOT be with a unit before the game begins.

well wth does it matter if they start with the unit or are with the unit before the game begins?

I dont see how that makes a difference.

Its also says may begin the game ALREADY with a unit. which means they are already with them, as in they were with them before the start.

Off the top of my head, the most important reason to make this distinction is Infiltration. If you're unclear, then you risk sounding like 5th ed, which allowed different possibilities than 6th. Currently, ICs w/ Infiltrate can't make squads Infiltrate, and squads w/ Infiltrate can't take an IC with them.

And as to the word "already":

An independent character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it

In this context, the word "already" is important so that an IC does not have to move into coherency, or declare coherency on T1. It means that, rather than needing to take any action, as soon as the game starts he is already with his unit.
Imagine if an IC did not begin the game "already" with a unit: the enemy, on top of T1, could target the IC since he would be by himself!

That's the exact same thing as being with the unit before the game started a.k.a before t1.

I think we are on the same page, not sure what you are trying to clarify.

No, as the way the written rule is, well, written, you cannot deploy an IC, THEN deploy a unit, and have the IC start joined to the unit - as you have not complied with the rule requiring you to deploy the IC in coherency with the unit.

 Icculus wrote:
well wth does it matter if they start with the unit or are with the unit before the game begins?

I dont see how that makes a difference.

Its also says may begin the game ALREADY with a unit. which means they are already with them, as in they were with them before the start.

An ic joins a unit by being deployed with it, or not deployed at all and the player stating that the ic will join a unit in reserve.
Thus the ic is not a part of the unit until its deployed (or reserved).

An ic without infiltrate, must either be deployed normally, or be placed in reserve.