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Does vector striking require you end up on the opposite side of the target from where you started? It says you have to pass over and I played a game where my opponent did it by just moving up to the vehicle. I assume he was thinking that as long as the base is 1" away that part of the heldrake model "passed over" my wave serpent. Just curious.

Moving up to is not the same as passed over.

He doesn't get to VS just by moving near your model.

Because flyers must move in a straight line, "passing over" is wicked straight forward. The Heldrake must start his move on one side of the model, and then end his turn on the other side of the target model in order to use the vector strike. If he can't completely pass over your model, then he can't strike.

Don't get this confused with sweep attacks, where you can use creative moving to get one of those off.

So in other words, if I am backed up against the board edge then an opponent cannot vector strike the unit, assuming it's not coming at the target from the side?

Yes, sweep attacks are another thing, but Heldrakes and DPs don't have that option .

Remember, if any part of the Heldrake's hull has passed completely over your unit, the Heldrake has passed over it. So just a wingtip over one model in your unit would count.

 silashand wrote:
So in other words, if I am backed up against the board edge then an opponent cannot vector strike the unit, assuming it's not coming at the target from the side?

Yes, sweep attacks are another thing, but Heldrakes and DPs don't have that option .

some around here will argue that you can vector strike as you fly off the table. YMMV

Placing them against the edge of the board is not protection from a vector strike. Heldrakes, like all flyers, have permision to move off the board itself so they would be more then able to 'pass over' you and then end their move by being placed into ongoing reserves. There is nothing preventing this from occuring that I can remember as they start at one point, end their move at another which just happens to be off the table, and can still draw a straight line from where they where to where they ended their turn. If that line is over the top of one of your models, then there is nothing preventing them from evoking a vector strike.

I would need to research the rule itself again to be 100% sure, of course, for while I don't normally like posting without the rule book open beside me but that isn't an option at work. I have used this rule several times though, I like my heldrakes, and I do not remember any limitation requiring you to measure from the heldrake or anything else that would require the heldrake to be physically present on the board. Without such a limitation there is nothing preventing you from evoking a rule, simply because you are moving into ongoing reserves is not enough. Permision to deal wounds using the vector strike has been granted and there is nothing denying you the ability to allocate them, more so as these wounds are random-allocated in any case.

AFAIK you can indeed Vector Strike over a unit by moving over them and going off the table. VS does not require drawing a line, nor does it require the final model's position to determine casualties, unlike Sweep attacks. The hits are randomized, so the final position of the VSing model doesn't matter.

I would argue that off table models cannot perform actions and since VS happens at the end of the phase it should not be allowed. However, it doesn't really matter to me one way or another. JMO though.

The base is what is counted as crossing over, so it has to atleast pass over one model. EDIT: Grr. HD is a vehicle so it gets a little more "creative".

Nothing in the rule book requires a model to be physically on the table in order to evoke a rule, which is what you do when you perform actions. The fact no limitation exists is important, as quite a few special rules that can only be used by models that are not on the table and these rules would immediately become unplayable as they are currently written. They would require specific over-writes allowing you to ignore the limitation set forth by a 'must be on the table' rule, if it did exist. If I am wrong over this, please point me to a page and paragraph that states a model must be on the table to evoke a special rule and the lines which would allow outflanking and other 'off the table' abilities to still be used in that situation.

Suffice to say in all the instances you list the rule *explicitly* allows actions off the table. Vector striking does not. Please point me to a rule that says models can perform actions while off table when not explicitly allowed to do so.

As I noted earlier I am not bothered one way or another which way this rule is interpreted. However, the assumption that because certain units can do things off board because their special rules explicitly allow them to do so also infers that other units can do so even when not explicitly stated is inherently flawed.

EDIT: my spelling sucks today, hence the multiple edits ... lol

Vector Striking is not an action performed while the unit is of the table; the model is on the table when it moves over the other unit, and it's moving over that unit which makes it eligible to inflict VS hits. The fact that the hits are resolved at the end of the phase, and the model is now off the table, doesn't change that as far as I can see. It still fulfilled the required action to perform the VS, and as I pointed out before, the mechanics of VS don't require measuring, drawing a line, or other actions which would be prevented by the fact that the model is off the table. Unlike Sweep attacks.

barnowl wrote:
The base is what is counted as crossing over, so it has to atleast pass over one model. EDIT: Grr. HD is a vehicle so it gets a little more "creative".

Nothing "creative" about it. You're just mistakenly applying a rule for non-vehicle models to a vehicle. Non-vehicle models count the base (all Flying Monstrous Creatures, for example) for movement and measurements. Vehicle models all use the hull, as the rulebook makes quite explicit.

I will need to get my hands on the rulebook before I can provided a more detailed explanation and page numbers. Going from a faulty memory the page should be the first one in the 'special rules' section of the book, in which it details what special rules are and how they are used. I would need to do more in-depth reading to see if there is a limitation of 'models on the table' but I do not remember such wording being present. As this section of the book is outlining what special rules are, as well as how and when they are used, any such limitation would likely be found in this section. Without such a limitation stating the model needs to be on the table, then it has just granted permission to use a special rule regardless of the physical location of the model unless the specific rule has a limitation within it that would require such details. For example: Having to measure distance from a model, as you would require the model to be physically placed on the table to measure from.

I would also need to do a deeper read over the deep-strike rules, for example, for a line that specifically states 'you may use this special rule even without the model being on the table.' Should such a limitation exist, that you need to be on the table, then it is a global limitation that has to be specifically addressed by the rule in order to invalidate it. It doesn't matter if the rule is clearly written to be used in such a method, from a rules as written perspective in any case, as it would still need to meet every limitation before it can be evoked. Therefore the general 'intent' of the rule is not enough to go on, but that is something I will look into when I return home.

Again I am going from a faulty memory, but I do not remember such line when I researched the question last time. At that time I was the one raising the question as I was sure I had read the 'has to be on the table' somewhere but could not re-find that piece of information and others pointed out to me that some special rules would indeed become broken if this was the case. If you have the page that states that a special rule can only be evoked by a model physically on the table, then I would greatly love to see that page for a range of reasons but I will go with 'personal knowledge.'

In order to say a flyer 'passed over' a model during its move, its hull(wing included) must start in a position where it is not over the model, during its movement be over the model to any degree and end it's move in a position where it is not over the model again.

In the OPs example, it did not 'pass over' the model, it 'stopped over' the model. If you stop on top of something, you have not passed over it. If you start on top of something, you've simply moved away from it.

I have reviewed the page I mentioned earlier and, interestingly, it has no details about how you go evoking special rules. It simply states that models have special rules before going on to state that certain psychic powers, weapons and situations will also grant access to special rules. It then lists the most common of these rules and details what they do, with most of them detailing how you go about evoking them within the game itself. This section of evoking is additional limitations for the most part, so they would still be governed by any global limitations and requirements that are in place to begin with. If someone can direct me to the page which highlights what these global limitations and requirements are, I would be much appreciated.

I'd say the VS can occur if the Heldrake or FMC leaves the table but passes over the unit prior to leaving the board. This same issue came up for Bombing Runs, and the rule reads in such a way as to indicate you can complete the bombing run even if the flyer leaves the board in the same movement phase.

The concept behind the Vector Strike attack is surely that the Heldrake or FMC savages the target unit as it passes over it and it is therefore resolved during the movement phase (at the end). It makes complete sense that a VS attack is permitted even if the model ends up off the table following its movement.

A more realistic way to simulate the VS would be to take part of your move so that the Heldrake/FMC is above the unit, resolve the attack, and then complete the rest of your movement. In this situation however you would have to hold your model above the target unit while rolling dice etc. which is very impractical and really makes no difference compared to resolving it after movement is completed. This practicality issue is probably why the rule leads you just to resolve it after moving. As well as making sure you can complete a legal move before resolving the VS attack.

I understand HD/FMC have the ability to pivot, but for argument's sake... locked velocity for instance...

What if a Helldrake is flying over a unit, vector strikes, and the final position of it's movement positions it over an enemy model, and the Helldrake is then wrecked.

Does the VS still go off then?

To put the whole argument of "does it work if the Heldrake leaves the table" to bed - yes, yes it still works. There is nothing in the Rulebook that prevents models from using special rules whilst off the table, and as previously mentioned a number of things rely on this being the case. To give one example that isn't explicitly mentioned in the rule, psykers still generate Warp Charge at the beginning of the turn, before they arrive from reserve - otherwise they wouldn't be able to use any powers at all on that turn.

What *usually* stops things from working from off the table is that you need a point of reference from the model - line of sight, range or otherwise.

Page 43, Vector Strike is worded thus - "At the end of the Movement phase, nominate any one unengaged enemy unit the model has moved over that turn." Nothing about this needs any of the usual kinds of points of reference - the only one is that the Vector Striker must have *previously* moved over the nominated unit. The fact that you nominate the unit, rather than "target" it, is also an important distinction. To sum up - nothing from the rule needs you to be on the table to work, and there's no blanket rule restricting it.

 deviantduck wrote:
What if a Helldrake is flying over a unit, vector strikes, and the final position of it's movement positions it over an enemy model, and the Helldrake is then wrecked.
Does the VS still go off then?

This is a little trickier. I would say yes, based on the line above, but I can see the counter-point in that the model may lose the benefit of the special rule on death (before Vector Strike is worked out). I'm sure there were some explanation as to why this is the case, despite it not being in the Rulebook. If you look at persistent-after-death special rules, they either rely on the model being an army selection (changing-to-Troops, Vulkan) or they specifically state they can be used after death or tell you to perform an action to cover it (St Celestine, Reanimation Protocols).

Then again, I'd say the same logic applies. The Helturkey did move over unit A, gets destroyed as it can't be placed because it ends up on top unit B.

It did still move over unit A and Vector Struck them in passing. So I'd say in that case that final Vector Strike still goes off.