Never 2 Shield Drones

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**Harkainos**

I am at school, so no quotes.

The Tau armoury states that you may not take 2 of the same item.

Under the Drone Conroller description it says you must take one or two gun, shield, or marker drones. This can be in any combination

Am I reading this correctly that you can have 2 drones but not 2 of the same type?

**mauleed**

The "any combination" is more specific than the "only one of each".

So you may have two.

**Harkainos**

es muy interesante.

I would have leaned to no, but I suppose that a more specific reference would beat out a general reference.

**Bad55**

Ahoj!
I think you are wrong, Mauleed.
You are reading to much into it.
"Any combination" does not override "cannot take two items". What it really means is:
gun + shield
gun + marker
shield + marker

That's what the rules tell us.

Borys

**SaimAlendryelII**

(P1)I agree with the more specific rule overrides the less specific rule line of reasoning.

(P2)And 'any' means without restriction to me.

(C)Therefore, you can take two drones of the same type.

**mauleed**

Posted By Borys on 03/30/2006 9:11 PM
Ahoj!
I think you are wrong, Mauleed.
You are reading to much into it.
"Any combination" does not override "cannot take two items". What it really means is:
gun + shield
gun + marker
shield + marker

That's what the rules tell us.

Borys

Is Shield + Shield a cominbation?

Then it must be allowed, since the more specific rule allows "any combination".

**Bad55**

Ahoj!
Any Combination = no restrictions on mixing - does not override "cannot take two of a kind".

Borys

**DaIronGob**

Are drones listed separately on the wargear list?

It appears to me that the actually wargear item you are buying is the "Drone Controller". It states when you but it you get two drones of any type in any combination.

So the one item allows you to use any drone you wish up to the limits as provided by the rules for the Drone Controller and not be the rules of the armory.

**mauleed**

Good luck convincing people of that one Borys.

You've got a general rule (limited to all wargear) that says you can't have two

You've got a specific rule (limited to drone controllers, a type of wargear) that says you can have two.

Here's the official argument I'm making:

P1. A model with a drone controller can have any combination of drones

P2. A shield drone + shield drone is a combination of dronges.

Conclusion: a model with a drone controller can have a shield drone plus a shield drone.

**DaIronGob**

Can a drone be taken as wargear without a controller?

**Bad55**

Ahoj!
No.
And you buy the Drones separately.
Borys

**DaIronGob**

Ok, so the drones are not a part of the armory/wargear, So the only actual part of the situation that adheres to the wargear/armory ruling is the drone controller and not the drones.

**scramasax**

The drone controller is part of the battlesuit support system list
the hard-wired drone controller is part of the battlesuit wargear and infantry wargear list
the gun drones, marker drones and shield drones are part of the battlesuit wargear list and the infantry wargear list

The same rule apply to the system whether it is hard-wired or hard-point mounted

There is another point that we can argue. the drones are models and the model that has the controller control other models but has only pick the drone controller has an item. there is no drone item on the model with the controller that are called drones because they are model by themselves

The seeker missile is worded a little differently. they say clearly that "With the exeception of seeker missile, only one of each upgrade may be taken by vehicle"

**Harkainos**

Posted By DaIronGob on 03/31/2006 9:31 AM
Are drones listed separately on the wargear list?

It appears to me that the actually wargear item you are buying is the "Drone Controller". It states when you but it you get two drones of any type in any combination.

So the one item allows you to use any drone you wish up to the limits as provided by the rules for the Drone Controller and not be the rules of the armory.

Yes they are under the Battlesuit Wargear List

Posted By DaIronGob on 03/31/2006 11:23 AM
Ok, so the drones are not a part of the armory/wargear, So the only actual part of the situation that adheres to the wargear/armory ruling is the drone controller and not the drones.

Incorrect, They are a wargear item and must follow the armoury rules. The only question here is: Does the specific drone controller entry trump the armoury. Personally I wouldn't think so, since it doesn't say 'may take 1 or 2 gun, shield, or marker drones an ALL combinations'

But that is why we are here isn't it?

**Kilkrazy**

<rhetorical ?> Why is it when it's an advantage to have drones (2 shield drones) we can't because they're wargear, but when it's a disadvantage (removes IC status from Commanders) they are not wargear? </rhetorical ?>

Clearly this is one of those very rare occasions when GW explain the rules.

**Harkainos**

because they are always wargear.

the IC status is never lost when drones are present (and the guidelines for dealing with drones is vague, at best).

you'll have to play house rules, as with most GW's perfect rules.

**Cpt_Horatius**

The way the wording is set for the general armoury rule is so you cannot take 2 drone controllers (and thereby take 4 drones). Once yopu have your "single" drone controller you follow the specific rules for that item, which does allow you to take 1-2 drones in any combination.

Mauleed is quite correct in the "general"/"specific" argument as this is the way it has worked with other codexes.

**blue loki**

Posted By Harkainos on 04/01/2006 12:57 AM
the IC status is never lost when drones are present (people would like you to believe they can cheat because the word unit is written randomly in the codex).

Hey now, you yourself argeed that that argument was a stalemate. What's the use in calling everyone who doesn't agree with you on the subject, and a subject that you declared as ambiguous at that, a "cheat"?

Not cool mate, not cool.

**Harkainos**

@Blue

LOL posted b4 the stalemmate (or when drunkanos came over), mate. I'll edit to reflect debate outcome.

@ Debate

You cannot negate the FACT that drone are in the armoury, under the wargear heading. ANY combination is not ALL combinations.

Only being allowed to take one drone of a given type doesn't negate the 'any combination' as 'any combination' can simply mean any that that you are allowed.

**mauleed**

Is shield + shield a combination?

Obviously it is.

Are you claiming that you can't take it? Yes you are.

So in fact you're claiming that you can't take any combination.

Which, as we've shown, is in direct conflict with the drone controller rules.

I don't think anything else needs to be said on the topic. Feel free to take two shield drones people.

**Harkainos**

Which, as we've shown, is in direct conflict with the drone controller rules.

no it isn't

any does not equal all. you are trying to say that the word any means all and that may not be the case. pure assumtion.

The ork codex has a very similar entry. It says that you may only take 1 item per ork, then goes onto squigs, mentioning their specific rule. The Tau Codex make no such reference.

**rank**

Is shield + shield a combination?

Obviously it is.

Are you claiming that you can't take it? Yes you are.

So in fact you're claiming that you can't take any combination.

Since no model may choose the same item twice (tau empire pg 25), you are choosing your 'any' combination of drones out of a pool of 3 total drones; gun, shield, and marker.

Look at it this way, you are up at the lunch counter, and your meal allows you to choose any two pieces of fruit. However, all that is available is an apple, orange, and a grapefruit. You are allowed to choose any combination, but due to whats available, you are unable to have two apples.

**Bad2088**

....This is interesting..... My feelings, I don't like Tau, only because of the female anatomy placed upon their heads haha. But the term in the codex (I don't have it so this is only a question), does it mean that shield drones are:

1.) Considered an item/wargear?
2.) Mutually exclusive, that is, if you have one shield drone, you may not have a 2nd, therefore the same guy cannot take another?

Remember this is only a question! Please do not tell me that I am slow because I said yes or no, I'm only asking on wording here.

**mauleed**

Your analogy is false because there are many bananas and apples, and taking two would be a combination.

**Harkainos**

1.Yes, Drones are considered to be item/wargear.

2. That is the debate. The entry for a Drone Controller says any combination of 2. The armoury says you may only take 1 of any item. One side says that the DC entry trumps the armoury, the other says no - it is in the confines of the armoury.

I play Tau, and wouldn't mind being able to take 2 Shield Drones, but that is not my understanding of the rule.

Posted By mauleed on 04/03/2006 1:34 PM

Your analogy is false because there are many bananas and apples, and taking two would be a combination.

Explain how there are MANY drones to choose from, when obviously there is only one of each given type?

Once again, if Drones where an exception to the 'choose the same item twice' armoury rule, it would have been mentioned - as in the Ork Codex.

**Bad2088**

You can look at it both ways, my understanding is they cannot take the same wargear twice, now they are also allowed a combination of any 2 of the 3 drones....
Here is the kicker, are drones items, wargear, or (as in the orks case) like squigs (that is an ork can only take one thing, but can also take a squig) and immune from this rule?

**Harkainos**

Posted By Hoj on 04/03/2006 1:40 PM
You can look at it both ways, my understanding is they cannot take the same wargear twice, now they are also allowed a combination of any 2 of the 3 drones....
Here is the kicker, are drones items, wargear, or (as in the orks case) like squigs (that is an ork can only take one thing, but can also take a squig) and immune from this rule?

They are wargear in the wargear section of the Codes -Just like squigs- except there is no exception for drones mentioned - Unlike the squigs.

**Abael**

Posted By Harkainos on 04/03/2006 11:14 AM
any does not equal all.

Ah, but 'any' actually does equal all. From dictionary.com:

"One, some, every, or all without specification"

So, by the exact wording of the drone controller entry, you would be able to take any combination. Since shield+shield is a combination, you can take it. This really is just a reiteration of Mauleed's argument.

On a related note, I've got a question. For the battlesuit armoury, the top part says (I don't have the codex with me, so no direct quotes) that everything must be shown on the model with the exception of Battlesuit Wargear (the section hard-wired systems are in) as they are assumed to be integrated. Now, I might be mistaken, but drones are a part of that portion of the armoury. That might lead one to believe that you don't have to show the drones, ergo don't have to have the model (as they are listed as wargear). Personally I think it was an omission or a typo or something, or that in the drone rules it said that drones needed to be shown (although I couldn't find it) or something to that effect. I also think that not showing the drones because of that is close to rules-lawyering, but I can't see why not (RAW-wise).

**Harkainos**

so the word any might = all, but it isn't specified. (Which is my argument, i should have put thwe word 'necessarily' in my last post...oops)
Ty abael

**mauleed**

dude, it's plain english.