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I was talking with my friend about fliers at a tourney last weekend, and this idea came up. What if jump units could assault fliers? Fluff-wise, it makes sense that units with jump packs or wings would be able to fly up and try to do something as a desperate last attempt. Throw grenades at the engines, some units like gargoyles just throwing their bodies to clog up the engines, etc. Game-wise it would add another counter to fliers and make people think twice about flying right into the middle of your force.
We were thinking about rules something like this: Any jump unit could assault a flier in the assault phase. No overwatch (as the flier is probably not going to be able to target units right underneath it). Each model in base-to-base contact gets one attack on the flier, needing a 6 to hit (due to the speed of the flier). Grenades can be used and hit rear armour (assumed to hit weak points such as engines, cockpit, loading doors, etc)
I didn't see another thread on this topic. Has anyone else play tested rules for assaulting fliers? Would this balance the game more or make it worse? Thoughts, criticisms, etc are all welcome.
Freytag93 wrote: I was talking with my friend about fliers at a tourney last weekend, and this idea came up. What if jump units could assault fliers? Fluff-wise, it makes sense that units with jump packs or wings would be able to fly up and try to do something as a desperate last attempt. Throw grenades at the engines, some units like gargoyles just throwing their bodies to clog up the engines, etc. Game-wise it would add another counter to fliers and make people think twice about flying right into the middle of your force.
We were thinking about rules something like this: Any jump unit could assault a flier in the assault phase. No overwatch (as the flier is probably not going to be able to target units right underneath it). Each model in base-to-base contact gets one attack on the flier, needing a 6 to hit (due to the speed of the flier). Grenades can be used and hit rear armour (assumed to hit weak points such as engines, cockpit, loading doors, etc)
I didn't see another thread on this topic. Has anyone else play tested rules for assaulting fliers? Would this balance the game more or make it worse? Thoughts, criticisms, etc are all welcome.
I'd love to be able to recreate this scene.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
I kind of like the idea, but grenades against fliers just sound silly. I could see it as a sort of "kamikaze attempt" where someone sacrifices him- or herself by flinging themselves into the flier's path and impacting its front, thereby causing it to crash.
If we want to really go into movie heroics, I could maybe see someone clinging to the flier's hull and attach a melta bomb to it or hack/shoot at the pilot or something.
I have a feeling that working out a rule that really feels balanced for both sides might be tough, though.
I kind of like the idea, but grenades against fliers just sound silly. I could see it as a sort of "kamikaze attempt" where someone sacrifices him- or herself by flinging themselves into the flier's path and impacting its front, thereby causing it to crash.
The idea of using grenades comes from the old Swooping Hawk apoc formation that allowed them to attack fliers using their haywire grenades. Unfortunately, the pdf was taken off of the GW site over a year ago. But it makes sense that a unit that can "fly" would be able to attach grenades (through mag-lock or w/e). The amount of concentration it would take to do that is why they would only get one attempt each.
I agree that balance-wise, its a tough issue. I haven't been able to play test it yet. But looking at the math-hammer, a 10 man assault squad would get 1 hit against a flier. Assuming they use their krak grenades, they would then have a 50% chance to glance/pen (they are strength 6 right?). That's not bad for a desperate attempt.
Maybe add in a rule that any roll of 1 to hit causes an automatic wound from being hit by the speeding flier? That could swing the balance more towards the flier.
Also, thank you mods for moving this to the appropriate forum.
Assaulting flyers only makes "sense" because flyer movement speeds in the tabletop game are absurdly slow. If you use fluff-accurate speeds even a relatively slow bomber is still moving many times faster than jump infantry, and that's on top of the altitude factor (again, not to scale). There's no way you could plausibly hit a flyer with a sword or grenade unless you happen to be directly in the flyer's path by blind luck, and even then you're probably going to die if you manage to hit it. So:
Assaulting a flyer: units with the infantry (jump pack) or infantry (jet pack) may attempt to hit a flyer. Regardless of the actual distance between the models the assaulting unit must roll a natural 12 for their charge range, representing the flyer's altitude above the table. This roll is always a straight 2D6, any abilities which modify or re-roll charge distance may not be used. Failure to do so results in a failed charge as usual. Once a unit has successfully charged they may attack as normal, but always need a 6+ to hit. If a model scores a hit, roll an additional D6 for each hit. On a 6 the hit is resolved normally, on a 1-5 the hit is resolved but the attacking model is unable to avoid being rammed by the flyer and is immediately removed as a casualty without any saves/FNP/etc allowed.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/08/27 09:30:32
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
I think the same suspension of disbelief that allows a dozen supersonic aircraft to wheel about an area the size of a football field should be applied in allowing jump infantry to assault them in a more meaningful way
Dakkamite wrote: I think the same suspension of disbelief that allows a dozen supersonic aircraft to wheel about an area the size of a football field should be applied in allowing jump infantry to assault them in a more meaningful way
Or if you're going to be making house rules you could actually fix the flyer issue instead of adding another stupid rule on top of the existing stupid rules. Flyers should go back to the old pre-Apocalypse approach where they make a strafing run and then leave the table, just with some additional rules for flyers intercepting other flyers now that they're a bigger part of the game.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Jump units should only be able to assault non supersonic fliers.
For those that don't break the Mach 1 barrier, I'd say bring on the Valkyrie run rip offs!
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
Kain wrote: Jump units should only be able to assault non supersonic fliers.
For those that don't break the Mach 1 barrier, I'd say bring on the Valkyrie run rip offs!
Even that doesn't make sense. Fluff-wise a Valkyrie is cruising around at 500mph, you can't plausibly assault it until it slows down into hover mode (at which point the game lets you assault already).
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Kain wrote: Jump units should only be able to assault non supersonic fliers.
For those that don't break the Mach 1 barrier, I'd say bring on the Valkyrie run rip offs!
Even that doesn't make sense. Fluff-wise a Valkyrie is cruising around at 500mph, you can't plausibly assault it until it slows down into hover mode (at which point the game lets you assault already).
Those ork storm boyz seemed to be doing just fine.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
Assaulting a flyer: units with the infantry (jump pack) or infantry (jet pack) may attempt to hit a flyer. Regardless of the actual distance between the models the assaulting unit must roll a natural 12 for their charge range, representing the flyer's altitude above the table. This roll is always a straight 2D6, any abilities which modify or re-roll charge distance may not be used. Failure to do so results in a failed charge as usual. Once a unit has successfully charged they may attack as normal, but always need a 6+ to hit. If a model scores a hit, roll an additional D6 for each hit. On a 6 the hit is resolved normally, on a 1-5 the hit is resolved but the attacking model is unable to avoid being rammed by the flyer and is immediately removed as a casualty without any saves/FNP/etc allowed.
@Peregrine I actually agree with you on the point that fliers shouldn't be used the way they currently are in the game. It makes much more sense that they would make a strafing run and then leave, rather than fly in tight circles around this small part of the battle. Unfortunately, It is a lot easier to convince people to try out a new rule for assaulting fliers than to have their fliers lose half of their attacks. Personally, I would like for fliers to go back to being restricted to apocalypse only. But to each their own I guess.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/27 18:32:20
Jump/Jet Pack models should be able to assault a Zooming Flyer/FMC. They need 6s to hit.
Also though, I think you should say that "If a model makes one or more 'to hit' rolls of '1', he has gotten too close and the flyer collides with him at full speed. He must pass an armour save or take a wound"
Maybe no armour saves allowed, but it makes sense to add some element of danger to it.
Fliers are replaced with "Air Support", representing one or several such fliers making sporadic strafing and bombing runs over the battlefield.
Each turn you roll to see if it comes in - in earlier turns theres more chance, in later, less. You also roll to see how many planes arrive, but I think that could be left out.
You pick a target and place your aircraft both facing the target, and within a certain distance. The position is important - your aircraft cannot go within X" of trees, buildings, and other high terrain, and it determines the target for enemy AA fire.
The target itself cannot be within X" of tall terrain or a considerably larger Y" of any friendly unit. I reckon those rules would make great sense for artillery as well.
If the aircraft survives the incoming AA then it makes an attack on the target and pisses off again until your next turn.
With rules like this, theres no more of the ridiculous dogfighting, and you can use smart unit placement (or abuse dumb opponent placement) to protect your units from the enemy aircraft.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/27 21:24:05
The old Apoc Reloaded book had a Swooping Hawk formation which allowed them to assault Flyers, requiring an Initiative Test (with any who failed being removed), and the survivors attack normally with Haywire grenades. Perhaps something along this line could be implemented as a rule for Jump/Jet Pack Infantry?
I like what Valkyrie suggested. Now I understand the whole "how would it work?" point of view...But this Warhammer 40K. We have a dimension where there are Gods, Demons, where time and space don't flow in the same sense that we all know. Psychic powers/magic in a sense. God Emperors and above all Big humans with multiple organs with tech to do the impossible which goes for all the races. Heck we have bugs that can form guns from their bodies! I'm pretty sure the concept of "How would it work?" is kinda thrown out of the window at that point. The suggest by Valkyrie is a very sound one. Along with a fix/possible balance to how crazy flyers have become. Jump/Jet packs should be able to see the Flyers coming thanks to Radio Intelligence or radar or something. So maybe they would have Interceptor? Or some variant of it that allows them/hints to them readying to intercept the flyers by priming their packs which is why they need to pass an Initiative Test. if passed they may assault the flyer. if this became a thing it mite make Jump/Jet infantry even more popular and make people want to field them more! Even more so for SM of all flavors and forms to equip Melta Bombs JUST for this. Again it'd require some play testing to see how much this work but it may very well make the game more fun! Not to mention give Armies(Space Wolves) a fighting chance against Flyers without having/being forced to pay for Fortifications and getting allies. Would help Nids out as well especially.
"We may be few, and our enemies many. Yet so long as there remains one of us still fighting, one who still rages in the name of justice and truth, then by the Allfather, the galaxy shall yet know hope."
Wolf Lord Kevin wrote: I'm pretty sure the concept of "How would it work?" is kinda thrown out of the window at that point.
It doesn't work that way. If all logic and reason were "thrown out of the window" because of the presence of strange things, why can't a naked Guardsman do a backflip into space with nothing but his own power? Warp Spiders can teleport. Just because teleportation doesn't exist doesn't mean that, therefore, a Firewarrior can hammertoss a Titan.
All the wraithknight would need to do would be to grab hold of the aircraft and let physics do the rest.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
Kain wrote: All the wraithknight would need to do would be to grab hold of the aircraft and let physics do the rest.
Too bad there's the tiny little problem of grabbing a plane flying at supersonic speeds hundreds/thousands of feet above the battlefield...
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Kain wrote: All the wraithknight would need to do would be to grab hold of the aircraft and let physics do the rest.
Too bad there's the tiny little problem of grabbing a plane flying at supersonic speeds hundreds/thousands of feet above the battlefield...
You were saying?
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
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if this became a thing it mite make Jump/Jet infantry even more popular and make people want to field them more! Even more so for 
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