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During 5th ed, both the punisher and pask were certainly poor choices. However, with 6th, the 250pts Leman Russ is actually starting to look fairly good IMO.

For one, some sort of space marine librarian is pretty much a no-brainer for IG. Dark Angels can provide divination and 4+ invulnerable for a tank line (can you take several techmarines as they don`t use slots?), Space wolves can provide two runepriests with divination and great anti-psyker etc. So you are probably already including a source of re-rolls in your army, possibly also a 4+ invulnerable save.

The second big change is the meta. MC`s, hordes and fliers are more and more common. Suddenly, 50pts for Pask is looking pretty good.

With 29 twin-linked S5 shots, you can be fairly certain to ground any flying MC. You are looking at 9 hits against snapfire targets on average, and 25 hits on normal targets, with re-rolls to wound against MC`s and S6 against fliers/tanks. It won`t knock out AV12 fliers, but you will do about 3HP`s vs AV11 fliers and 8ish wounds against T5 flying MC`s.

If you can ground an MC before letting Pask loose on it, you`re looking at around 19 wounds on a T5 MC.
He also knocks out AV12 ground vehicles on average and does about 17 wounds on T4 infantry.

In summary, the offensive power of the paskquisher is formidable when boosted by divination (which at least I planned on bringing along anyway). It can seriously dent anything not AV13+ (12+ for fliers), it is good against most MC`s and of course, it does well against infantry. The big negative is that it cannot reliably hurt T6 2+ save MC`s or Av12 fliers and that it is fairly short-ranged, but I guess the rest of the army has to pick up the slack.

On the defense, AV14 is actually starting to look better again. People are bringing less melta, you can bring your own guaranteed 4+ cover or invulnerable save (DA allies or skyshield). 250pts is only land raider price, and because it is a much more defensive vehicle, the punisher is not so likely to see much short-range melta.

So, am I crazy, or is the paskisher suddenly looking like one of the better IG heavy slots?

Pask works great in Punishers, especially against MCs, for the reasons you mentioned, as the key weakness of a normal punisher is that the high ROF (which is what you pay for) is largely wasted by low BS, so anything you can do to boost that makes it more worthwhile. The range is an issue, so it's more useful in a more aggressive list, and with regards to AV12/T6 with 2+, you should be able to bring other tools to deal with them, like mass LC, plasma/melta vets or Vanquisher/executioner. As an infantry-killer, the Pask-Punisher is a great choice.

Pask is actually a good hoice on a lot of tanks, as the BS/+1 on AP roll boosts on a PC/LC Vanquisher makes it a lethal threat to tanks of any kind, and the same abilities can seriously help a lot in turning the HB Exterminator into a more effective weapon against vehicles and infantry. He is less useful for the blast russes, but if you already have a punisher, vanquisher or exterminator and have the 50 points handy, he is a great investment.

+1 for the bolter-boat paskinator.

Throw on a HKM too if you fancy a laugh

Bit of a let-down for the punisher is its range. 24" on a heavy vehicle doesn't leave much room for error in placement.

I believe A Paskquisher is Pask in a Vanquisher

However, the Pask-Punisher is fantastic for close range firefights against horde armies. It is a lot like an Ork dakkajet unleashing it's guns on a Waaagh! turn, except you get more shots here (lower strength/ap, but extra shots is what you need against most infantry). Basically putting Pask in most of the Leman Russ variants is overkill... not that that's a bad thing for 50 points...

I think pask is a good deal, and I for sure agree he belongs in a punisher lol I'm looking at you termagaunts!

I believe the term is Paskisher, not Paskquisher, which refers to something else altogether.

But yes, sometimes a Paskisher can be quite worthy if something with a T value absolutely must die.

Please bear with - just did some rough maths...

A paskisher hits 13/14 times, wounds T3 11 times.

6+ save = 9 dead
5+ save = 7 dead

If we throw in the hull HB too: 1 more?

If a TG is what - 5 points? That's between 40 and 50 points you've killed with your 180 point tank + 50 point commander.

Even with 2 turns of shooting (only 24" range mind) that still only 80-100 points.

Throw on HB sponsons? I'll give you 3 more for those 20 points. 55 - 65 points per turn.

You get to throw lots of dice, but I'm not convinced slaying gaunts is that efficient a use of points...

Gaunts were a case in question, theres a good chance to kill pretty much anything not T7+

Firstly, I'd note that one of the things that pask gives you is the ability to not have a librarian, as BS4 covers most of that, while diluting the use of twin-linking. If, as you say, you're already taking a librarian, then pask gives you the ability to use the librarian to prescience something else.

Anyways, punishers are pretty good, and yes, pask makes them better. There's only one problem though, with a max 30" threat range (or 24" if you want +S against vehicles or rerolls against MCs), a pask punisher is strictly a defensive weapon. And, that, really, is its undoing. Because if you've got 250+ points to blow on a pask punisher, you've got points to spend on a pair of mechvet squads. They lose about half of the mid-strength dakka, but they gain a heaping pile of BS4 plasma and melta. And they score.

Likewise, if you're running a foot list, you should have no shortage of low strength firepower, and you'll already have a lot of special weapons. No matter which way you go, imperial guard shouldn't have any trouble throwing down a bunch of defensive units. A pask punisher doesn't offer all that much than you should already be able to handle.

Meanwhile, if what you want is a librarian and pask, look at the kind of carnage you can achieve with pask in a vanquisher with a lascannon and plasma cannon sponsons. Two blast lascannons, one S10 lascannon, and one armorbane lascannon. At BS4, with twin-linked. You want to talk about a threat to hard targets, that's pretty much it right there. If you're worried about fliers, switch over to multimeltas, and the end result is more or less the same. Stuff gets really, really wrecked. Compared to stuff gets wrecked only if your opponent brings stuff into range.

I used gaunts as my subject for the punisher only cause my buddy who spams them and is so hyped for the new codex that is rumored after space marines.

With the rumor of the next two xenos codex's being nid and orks I feel horde armies might become more frequent again so the pask & punisher will be a helpful tool if they don't nerf them for some reason in the next IG codex

An who said over kill is a bad thing lol

umm... I would. Nobody wants to waste firepower when they don't have to. It's the same whether you're shooting a lascannon against guardsmen, or if you're having to spend hundreds of points of pask tank to, say, blow up a single venom.

... which I've been forced to do before...

*sigh*

Range is the big negative of course, 30" against infantry or 24" against MC`s and tanks. The short range and slow tank means you won`t go around hunting down backfield units with it. It should be capable of threatening anything midfield and back though, which is a significant part of the table. You have objectives which force people into places, most flyers come closer at some point, you have short ranged firepower and close combat power that forces people to come nearer etc.

The tank is good against a lot of the popular units in current 40k. Most infantry, necron fliers, wave serpents, flying MC`s etc. Few units are delivering so consistently against so many different units. It seems to me that it can be a jack-of-all-trades that actually works. You can find stuff that does part of it better. Hydras fight fliers and skimmer better, but are useless against ground targets. Paskquisher (thanks for correcting me) is better against tanks and T6 2+ MC`s, but worse against most other stuff.

The gaunt-math is wrong. You will do 16 wounds on T3 without re-rolls. While that won`t get your pts back in one round, it isn`t shabby. (very little gets it pts back in one round shooting gaunts) Getting pts back isn`t really relevant either.

stripeydave wrote:
Please bear with - just did some rough maths...

A paskisher hits 13/14 times, wounds T3 11 times.

6+ save = 9 dead
5+ save = 7 dead

If we throw in the hull HB too: 1 more?

If a TG is what - 5 points? That's between 40 and 50 points you've killed with your 180 point tank + 50 point commander.

Even with 2 turns of shooting (only 24" range mind) that still only 80-100 points.

Throw on HB sponsons? I'll give you 3 more for those 20 points. 55 - 65 points per turn.

You get to throw lots of dice, but I'm not convinced slaying gaunts is that efficient a use of points...

This is quite a way off.
BS4 w. Prescience is 8/9 chance of hitting.
S5 vs. T3 is 5/6 chance of wounding
6+ save vs. the punisher cannon is a 5/6 chance of getting through.
Modal average = 21*(8/9)*(5/6)*(5/6)
= (4200/324)
= 12
Modal average HBs = 10*(8/9)*(5/6)
= (400/54)
= 7
So 19 gants dead. That's (assuming no upgrades at all) 95pts. If they were devilgants, 190pts.

Someone run the numbers vs an un Iron Arm'd Tervie

 IHateNids wrote:
Someone run the numbers vs an un Iron Arm'd Tervie

Chance to hit and wound and unsaved = (8/9)*(5/9)*(1/3) = 40/243
modal average = 30*(40/243)
= 4 wounds assuming no FNP.

that's not too bad...

 Kain wrote:
I believe the term is Paskisher, not Paskquisher, which refers to something else altogether.

But yes, sometimes a Paskisher can be quite worthy if something with a T value absolutely must die.

didn't spot that there wasn't a q.... I'm going blind I think

 IHateNids wrote:
that's not too bad...

Yeah it's not too bad, although I think there are more efficient ways to kill a tervigon
To be fair though, the Paskisher is supposed to be like a Swiss army knife (other than AV12 flyers and AV13+).

more efficient ways to strip 4 wounds in a single volley? Outside of Plasvets, I don't see it...

 IHateNids wrote:
more efficient ways to strip 4 wounds in a single volley? Outside of Plasvets, I don't see it...

An autocannon HWT squad is 75pts. 250pts = 3.3333 squads, or 10 individual teams.
BiD! On them gives this formula:
Chance to hit = (3/4)
Chance to wound = (2/3)
Chance to save = (1/3)
Modal average = 21*(1/6)
= 3 wounds...
Actually that's not as good as I thought...
But when you remember that pask dies much quicker, and also relies on an allied detachment for divination, as opposed to a CCS (which you should have anyway), then the HWTs win out.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alternatively, Pask + divvy + PFG ~=380pts
For that I could almost have three vendettas.
9x twin linked lascannons...
Modal average = 10*(3/4)*(5/6)
= 6 wounds (or dead tervigon)

Both the alternatives you suggest, while mathematically roughly equal or superior, suffer from major weaknesses.

The Pask tank is immune to anything S7 and under on the front armour (with its range, you can hide the back against the board edge), whereas the HWT die like flies to small arms fire, have major Leadership issues, and you can lose a squad to even a single S6+ shot thanks to ID and low Ld (which also makes them harder to give orders too). They are also less efficient against most targets.

The Vendettas suffer from not being on the board T1, and probably leaving it at some point, and every turn they aren't around, the Tervigon is spewing gants everywhere. And on the whole, most competitive nid lists have a couple of FMC, and the 'dettas are your best chance of taking these guys out, so if you're shooting the tervigon with your anti-air units, the flyrants are taking out everything else almost untouched. Also, they lack the ability to kill infantry by the bucketload, which is something the Paskisher can do all day long. They just cannot compete with the versatility of the Russ in this case.

 Paradigm wrote:
Both the alternatives you suggest, while mathematically roughly equal or superior, suffer from major weaknesses.

The Pask tank is immune to anything S7 and under on the front armour (with its range, you can hide the back against the board edge), whereas the HWT die like flies to small arms fire, have major Leadership issues, and you can lose a squad to even a single S6+ shot thanks to ID and low Ld (which also makes them harder to give orders too). They are also less efficient against most targets.

The Vendettas suffer from not being on the board T1, and probably leaving it at some point, and every turn they aren't around, the Tervigon is spewing gants everywhere. And on the whole, most competitive nid lists have a couple of FMC, and the 'dettas are your best chance of taking these guys out, so if you're shooting the tervigon with your anti-air units, the flyrants are taking out everything else almost untouched. Also, they lack the ability to kill infantry by the bucketload, which is something the Paskisher can do all day long. They just cannot compete with the versatility of the Russ in this case.

I wasn't suggesting them, I was merely answering the question (efficient ways to take 4 wounds off a tervigon in one volley).
Also the Paskisher can't just sit at the back, as the main weapon has only a 24" range.

Fair enough, and you're right about the range, for some reason I was thinking of a Vanquisher.

Haha that mistake has been made a lot on this thread