Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I recently bought (and painted!) a new Daemon Prince model for my Chaos Space marine army and I'm debating how best to use him. Here's more or less the list I'm running around the DP HQ:

1500 pts
3 x 10 man CSM squads, unmarked, with 1 melta, a rhino, and a havoc launcher
1 x 5 man CSM squad, unmarked, with 1 melta
1 x 3 Oblitoraters
1 x Tri-las predator
and of course
1 x Daemon Prince

So obviously I'm taking wings and power armor. I am leaning towards taking mastery level 3 to try and get 2 rolls on the Biomancy table. No Daemon Weapons or artifacts, but probably a spell familiar. I'm on the fence about what mark to use. Daemon of Tzeentch seems to be quite popular, but honestly the psychic powers are not as good as Nurgle's or Slaanesh's. Additionally the the reroll is only, at best, an extra 11% chance to save with the power armor.

With a Daemon of Nurgle you pick up either Nurgle's rot or Plague Wind, both or which could be powerful, and the shrouded USR. I don't like that you also get Slow and Purposeful, but it's not the end of the world. My concern is that by having the DP as my Warlord I would need to really throw him into the heat of battle to get those short range witchfire powers to pay off. I don't want him to get focus fired off the board turn 1 if I can help it.

With a Daemon of Slaneesh both powers seem really strong. Also it costs 5 points less than the others. Unfortunately fleet and extra run distance isn't going to be game changing as far as I can estimate.

Anyway, what are other people's thoughts on this? let me know.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hmmm poked around in the tactics history and it seems like people really don't like the psyker DP... or at least contend that it is too random / expensive for reliable game play.

Tzeentch + burning brand seems pretty popular too. I feel like not have some shooting capacity nerfs the ability of the DP to take out troops.


Something about dropping a large blast, plague wind with AP2 really gets me though

The psyker prince is not bad as long as you understand what his roll is. He will almost never survive a game and will rarely "make his points back". However, he will draw crazy amounts of fire power. That should give you some breathing room to use other units to do damage. However your current list has only two other units of note. Oblits and predator. You have too many points tied up in csm, which are now possibly the worst troop choice in the game. If you do run them make sure to max out special weapons.

If you don't use the black mace, run him as a daemon book prince. That way you get more rolls on biomancy without having to take crappy powrrs. Plague bearers are also exellent objective holders.

I was actually considering a beatstick route with the Black Mace. What else is good to add besides wings, armor and the mace if you were to go the tough, cc route?

 Icculus wrote:
I was actually considering a beatstick route with the Black Mace. What else is good to add besides wings, armor and the mace if you were to go the tough, cc route?

Just the black mace, wings, power armor and mark will set you back a good deal. For that price you can get a blood thirster which has higher T and is better at dealing with other MCs. However the black mace prince is good at dealing with hordes. If you want to go all out, give the prince psychic powers and roll on biomancy. If he gets iron arm he can be quite a nuisance. But you are investing even more points in him and don't have a guarantee to get iron arm.

Would you say vanilla CSM are better or worse than Thousand sons?

I'd say vanilla, unless you fight SM opponents.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But literally, give the Prince PA, Black Mace, Wings and MoT. Then send him at things and laugh as he destroys people.

The problem with psychic powerless demon princes is that there usually isn't that much reason to take him over a chaos lord on a bike. You're spending a lot more points, losing IC, and can't take a 4++, just so that you can give a black mace Ap2. That's a nice gain, but not much for what you lose. In the very least, you should take lvl 1 mastery if for no other reason than that you get a 5+ deny the witch.

The other problem with demon princes is that they're terribly vulnerable to instant death. Tzeentch fixes this by having a good save (the reroll affects invul as well as armor), while nurgle fixes this with +T. Outside of this, though, tzeentch is more durable, because shrouding means you only have a better save when you're hiding in cover, which will be a relative rarity, while the reroll save just always works. Is it worth it to have a worse psychic power, I guess that's up to you.

Meanwhile, the neat thing about demons of slaanesh is that they run so fast that they sort of don't need wings. This means you can make them cheaper than your average DP. The neat thing with demons of khorne is that there's absolutely no reason to take them, as a khorne biker/jump pack lord with an axe of blind fury is better in every way.

Otherwise, how I'd probably use a DP is as a sorcerer, but who is more durable. Have him sort of sit back and be a jerk with TP spells. Probably wouldn't even bother with wings, honestly.

 Ailaros wrote:
The problem with psychic powerless demon princes is that there usually isn't that much reason to take him over a chaos lord on a bike. You're spending a lot more points, losing IC, and can't take a 4++, just so that you can give a black mace Ap2. That's a nice gain, but not much for what you lose. In the very least, you should take lvl 1 mastery if for no other reason than that you get a 5+ deny the witch.

The other problem with demon princes is that they're terribly vulnerable to instant death. Tzeentch fixes this by having a good save (the reroll affects invul as well as armor), while nurgle fixes this with +T. Outside of this, though, tzeentch is more durable, because shrouding means you only have a better save when you're hiding in cover, which will be a relative rarity, while the reroll save just always works. Is it worth it to have a worse psychic power, I guess that's up to you.

Meanwhile, the neat thing about demons of slaanesh is that they run so fast that they sort of don't need wings. This means you can make them cheaper than your average DP. The neat thing with demons of khorne is that there's absolutely no reason to take them, as a khorne biker/jump pack lord with an axe of blind fury is better in every way.

Otherwise, how I'd probably use a DP is as a sorcerer, but who is more durable. Have him sort of sit back and be a jerk with TP spells. Probably wouldn't even bother with wings, honestly.

The Nurgle upgrade on the daemon prince doesn't give you +T. It just makes you shrouded and slow and purposeful. The cover save from shrouded is not a situation thing, it always works as well. Meaning that if the prince is hanging out in the open he has a 5+ cover save. If he puts even a pinky in area terrain he has 3+. If he's flying in the open and dives, he has a 3+. You can assault just fine after diving too so there really is no downside to this. So shrouding is pretty good.

The instant death thing is a problem though. That's why I typically stay away from the princes. The greater daemons are much more attractive with T6. Although not all them have access to the 3+ armor save. There is a way around the instant death problem. If you take Black Legion as allies, they have access to wargear that makes the wearer have eternal warrior. I think it gives Adamantium Will also, so you get 5+ on deny the witch. Or better if you take psychic powers.

As for a TP support prince suggested by Ailaros, I think a Keeper of Secrets might work better. He's cheaper and doesn't have to roll on the crappy CSM powers list.

All interesting points. Thanks for the replies. Is the typically problem that the dp wipes out a squad and the gets shot to bits or that it never gets into cc to begin with?

Yes, a nurgle demon gets a 5+ cover save out in the open, but he already has a 5++.

Also, that slow and purposeful is a killer. The demon has I9 but can't preform a sweeping advance. Always sweeping every time is one of the few real advantages a demon prince has.

The winged prince has the definitive advantage of being a flying monstrous creature. That way he can swoop and get in close in the first turn. If he gets shot down (unlikely) you get one wound at worst which he can take. And in the next round he'll be in cc. That worked out very well for me the last few games. Lords on bikes have that 12" and turbo, but don't ignore terrain and can be shot at much better.

fiftyvolts wrote:
All interesting points. Thanks for the replies. Is the typically problem that the dp wipes out a squad and the gets shot to bits or that it never gets into cc to begin with?

this is a common problem, by chalangeing the character in the squad so you tear him in half in your turn and the squad in your opponents, although some opponents see through this and against space marines they can choose to fail the morale test, fall back and bolter him off the table

demon princes have become overcosted and are now a bit meh, however they will kill practicaly anything you hit them with

my build

AoBF, wings, armor, MoK, 255pts

cheap for a prince and hits at S9 on charge which due to the massive volume of attacks (13 at max) can open vehicles as well as infantry, something that the black mace struggles with

if you want a psyker get a sorcerer they are cheap can hide in squads and are LD10 so cast better than princes, add a bike and he becomes almost as mobile

Swooping doesn't get you anywhere any faster than a bike can, except the bike can hide in a squad, and doesn't have to worry about grounding tests.

And for khorne demons, seriously, compare it to a juggerlord with an axe of blind fury. The juggernought gives the khorne lord nearly the same stats, but the lord benefits from what I just said about bikes, and can make berzerkers troops, and he's cheaper, and he does more damage.

The only time I can see the use of a khorne demon prince is if you already have a jugerlord, but even then, there are a lot of other HQs you could take that would also compliment a juggerlord.

 Ailaros wrote:
Yes, a nurgle demon gets a 5+ cover save out in the open, but he already has a 5++.
Also, that slow and purposeful is a killer. The demon has I9 but can't preform a sweeping advance. Always sweeping every time is one of the few real advantages a demon prince has.

Yes, but if you dive (which has no negative effects on your ability to charge next turn) you get a 3+ cover save, which is pretty good I think. Plus, most of the time you don't even need to dive. Just put a toe in terrain while flying and you have a 3+. If you actually obscure him with a building, you have a 2+. So with a little planning you can stay safe.

Blackskull wrote:
cheap for a prince and hits at S9 on charge which due to the massive volume of attacks (13 at max) can open vehicles as well as infantry, something that the black mace struggles with

The rules for Smash actually make the black mace pretty good at cracking armor. As you half your base attacks to smash you'll still get the D6 attacks at S10. So I don't think they have issues with armor.

Ailaros wrote:
And for khorne demons, seriously, compare it to a juggerlord with an axe of blind fury. The juggernought gives the khorne lord nearly the same stats, but the lord benefits from what I just said about bikes, and can make berzerkers troops, and he's cheaper, and he does more damage.

The Khorne lords will struggle with monstrous creatures. Against T6 they will only be wounding on 4s and if you face a Wraith Lord or Wraith Knight you'll need 6s. Unless you get shred, that's going to be tough. The prince can at least smash and still wound on 2s. With the black mace, the prince has a chance to kill a wraith knight before the guy ever swings back (not likely, but possible).

The problem with the prince and the lord against monstrous creatures is that one failed invulnerable save against a smash attack results in death. That's why a daemon prince is likely to whip the lord as the prince will be swinging first.

This problem can either be solved with the Black Legion trinket that makes the character eternal warrior. Otherwise I would suggest taking a biker/jugger lord and pairing him with a greater daemon from the daemon book. The lord chops up troops while the giant daemon goes after fellow monstrous creatures.

Seriously, look at the demon of khorne with armor, wings, and a black mace, and compare it to a blind fury lord on a juggernought with a sigil.

First, you look at the statline. The demon has a better WS, but both of them are hitting virtually everything on 3's. The demon also has better I, but once again, both of them are unlikely to get killed before they get a chance to swing. Then, the lord gets to actually USE his BS, and they're tied on T, W, and A (because of two weapons for the lord). They're tied on S, except that the lord can be +1S on the charge if he's in a unit with an IoW.

The demon can fly, but the lord gets cavalry rules, and they both get D6 extra attacks, and they're both Ap2. So far, so roughly equal.

And then the juggerlord doesn't need to worry about grounding tests, or skyfire. And he can join a squad, giving them fearless. And he can join a squad, giving himself ablative wounds (making him MUCH safer). And he makes berzerkers troops. And he comes with a 4++, which is once again better.

The juggerlord does literally the same things as the demon prince, but more safely, and with better synergy with the rest of your army. And for all this benefit, you have to pay 95 points FEWER for the lord. Taking a khorne demon prince over a juggerlord is just crazy talk. Once you've got a juggerlord, then sure, consider a demon prince, but you could also consider taking a land raider for your list, and still having points left over...

 Ailaros wrote:
Seriously, look at the demon of khorne with armor, wings, and a black mace, and compare it to a blind fury lord on a juggernought with a sigil.

First, you look at the statline. The demon has a better WS, but both of them are hitting virtually everything on 3's. The demon also has better I, but once again, both of them are unlikely to get killed before they get a chance to swing. Then, the lord gets to actually USE his BS, and they're tied on T, W, and A (because of two weapons for the lord). They're tied on S, except that the lord can be +1S on the charge if he's in a unit with an IoW.

The demon can fly, but the lord gets cavalry rules, and they both get D6 extra attacks, and they're both Ap2. So far, so roughly equal.

And then the juggerlord doesn't need to worry about grounding tests, or skyfire. And he can join a squad, giving them fearless. And he can join a squad, giving himself ablative wounds (making him MUCH safer). And he makes berzerkers troops. And he comes with a 4++, which is once again better.

The juggerlord does literally the same things as the demon prince, but more safely, and with better synergy with the rest of your army. And for all this benefit, you have to pay 95 points FEWER for the lord. Taking a khorne demon prince over a juggerlord is just crazy talk. Once you've got a juggerlord, then sure, consider a demon prince, but you could also consider taking a land raider for your list, and still having points left over...

They are both AP2??
I was under the impression only the DP can use the Black Mace effectively as an AP2 weapon due to him being a monstrous creature and being able to smash...

Yes. For that reason, both the blind fury lord and the black mace prince are Ap2.