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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Houston, Texas

I've heard around the interwebz that Magnus actually makes the most incursions of any Daemon Primarch. He's just a lot subtler about it than say Angron. This is basically an Aetaos rau Keres with much better powers.
Yeah he's better than the daemon lords like Rau Keres, An'ggrath, or Zarakynel.
Note: Unlike the Emprah rules, these are done from the perspective of Forgeworld albeit lore accurate what with even Lorgar beating An'ggrath.
Magnus, Daemon Primarch of the Thousand Sons Points: 1250
[WS][BS][S][T][W][I][A][LD]SV
[..7..][.6.][.7][8][.9][5][5][10.]2+/3+ invul
Unit Type: Gargantuan Creature (I'm using a heavily modified Mecha Spawn figure)
Unit Composition: 1 Magnus the Red
Special Rules: Living Icon, EW, IWND 5+, Adamantium Will, Psychic Mastery 9, Preferred Enemy (Space Wolves, Nurgle)
Wargear: Armor of the Golden Scarab, Staff of Magnus, Demonic Wings
Powers
Annihilation Maelstrom: Warp Charge Cost:3, 6D6 S:9 AP:4 Shots at 48 inch range
Power of the Warp: Warp Charge Cost 4: S: D, AP:1, 10" blast, 40 inch range. (Magnus had this power back in epic. Apocalypse is starting to have larger and larger scale)
Blessing of the Iron Arm: Warp Charge Cost 2: This grants 1 unit D3 Strength and Toughness to 1 target unit for 1 turn.
Prescience: Warp Charge Cost 1: One unit of your choice may reroll all their saves for 1 turn.
"Blessings" of Tzeentch: Warp Charge Cost 3: Flame Template, Enemy models hit by this turn into Chaos Spawn on a roll of 4+.
Warp Speed: Warp Charge Cost 1:One unit of your choice gains I8 until the end of your turn.
Primarch abilities
I Shall Not Fall: Magnus sheathes himself in psychic energy and only takes D3 wounds from S: D wounds, and can attempt to save each with a 5+ invul.
Legendary General: Magnus gives Thousand Sons units ATSKNF, and LD 10.
Leader of Men: Magnus makes Thousand Sons troops and counts as a sorcerer for rubric marines within 24 inches.
The Spear Tip: Magnus grants Thousand Sons units within 15 inches Fleet, Counter attack, count as defensive and assault grenades.
God among Gods: Magnus is immune to the effects of force weapons, ignores dangerous terrain, and ignores poison on a 3+. Magnus may cast any number of powers per turn in any combination equal to his mastery level.
Wargear
Staff of Magnus: This tank sized heqa staff grants Magnus +2 strength in combat, and he may use it's ability to up his mastery level to 10 for one turn once per game.
Golden Armor of the Scarab: This custom armor grants Magnus a 2+ armor and a 3+ Invul save.



This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/09/01 21:18:15


Finally found my quote from a gym buddy born and raised in South Korea:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.
"It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
"It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag." 
   
Made in ca
Lord of the Fleet






Halifornia, Nova Scotia

So this for 30k rules, Apoc only, or some weird combination. Furthermore, is this supposed to be balanced with respect to other primarchs as released by FW?

Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress

+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+

Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias! 
   
Made in au
Dangerous Outrider





man, just because some guy beat some other guy and thus another guy must be even stronger, doesn't mean you should give them the stats to almost ALWAYS win a fight against the person they're supposed to be stronger than.
   
Made in ua
Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch





 ThePrimordial wrote:
Unit Type: Gargantuan Creature (I'm using a heavily modified Mecha Spawn figure)

Magnus usually manifest in more compact form than GK - from his 20 feet primarch form to the size of ordinary human (being daemon he can shapeshift).
After all supporting huge ethereal body take some power that otherwise could be used to cast city-nuking spells.

I currently work on TS fandex and it is "Magnus incarnation" character there (Magnus manifested without sacrifice giving him full access to his godlike power) - he have the statline close to DP, 3+/4++ but ML6 and all spells he manifest are supercharged (like 1.5-2 times better than regular - usual sorcerers in my fandex could use them too but are forced to pass Psy test on 3d6 and need special byable/acquirable in battle tokens). He could be buffed to allstats9 close combat monster but at the cost of almost all his warpcharges or be used as (relatively) fragile malediction/witchfire deathmachine.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/31 08:06:44


"It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change."
Charles Darwin, first champion of Tzeench 
   
Made in gb
Hallowed Canoness





Between

According to Battle of the Fang, Magnus should have something like the following rule:

Forgetful: In the press of battle, Magnus often forgets who he is, leading to temporary setbacks until he can remember that he's a daemon primarch, dammit. To represent this, he takes all Psychic tests against a Leadership of 5. However, if Magnus suffers Perils of the Warp, he instead remembers that this should be easy because he's Magnus the Red, Changer Damn It, and casts the power normally without suffering a wound. Deny the Witch may not be used against spells cast with Magnus' Forgetful Perils.



"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. 
   
Made in ua
Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch





@Furyou Miko, ha-ha, very funny

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/31 08:28:13


"It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change."
Charles Darwin, first champion of Tzeench 
   
Made in gb
Drakhun





 Furyou Miko wrote:
According to Battle of the Fang, Magnus should have something like the following rule:

Forgetful: In the press of battle, Magnus often forgets who he is, leading to temporary setbacks until he can remember that he's a daemon primarch, dammit. To represent this, he takes all Psychic tests against a Leadership of 5. However, if Magnus suffers Perils of the Warp, he instead remembers that this should be easy because he's Magnus the Red, Changer Damn It, and casts the power normally without suffering a wound. Deny the Witch may not be used against spells cast with Magnus' Forgetful Perils.


Quoted for truth, he should also have this.

JUST AS PLANNED! : Magnus has always been an utter pawn of Tzeentch despite every attempt to break free from his bondage. Once per game Magnus may scream JUST AS PLANNED! as he tries to break free from Tzeentch's grasp. JUST AS PLANNED counts as a S10 AP1 Flamer.

DS:90-S+G+++M++B-IPw40k03+D+A++/fWD-R++T(T)DM+
Warmachine MKIII record 39W/0D/6L
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Houston, Texas

 Mezmerro wrote:
 ThePrimordial wrote:
Unit Type: Gargantuan Creature (I'm using a heavily modified Mecha Spawn figure)

Magnus usually manifest in more compact form than GK - from his 20 feet primarch form to the size of ordinary human (being daemon he can shapeshift).
After all supporting huge ethereal body take some power that otherwise could be used to cast city-nuking spells.

I currently work on TS fandex and it is "Magnus incarnation" character there (Magnus manifested without sacrifice giving him full access to his godlike power) - he have the statline close to DP, 3+/4++ but ML6 and all spells he manifest are supercharged (like 1.5-2 times better than regular - usual sorcerers in my fandex could use them too but are forced to pass Psy test on 3d6 and need special byable/acquirable in battle tokens). He could be buffed to allstats9 close combat monster but at the cost of almost all his warpcharges or be used as (relatively) fragile malediction/witchfire deathmachine.

Daemon Primarchs in lore are the nastiest things you could have the misfortune of encountering on the battlefield. They destroy entire titan legions by themselves. They make imperator titans look like cute baby kittens standing next to an alpha rhino.

Finally found my quote from a gym buddy born and raised in South Korea:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.
"It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
"It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag." 
   
Made in ua
Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch





@ThePrimordial
Daemon Primarchs may be powerful as hell but their power is limited by the amount of warp energy they can channel through themselves. Sure, they could destroy entire armies, but only on the daemonic planets or inside warp-storm, and without major sacrifices, warp-rift or another sort of psychic source it is difficult to them to even sustain physical form for long.

"It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change."
Charles Darwin, first champion of Tzeench 
   
Made in gb
Ghastly Grave Guard



Uk

 ThePrimordial wrote:
I've heard around the interwebz that Magnus actually makes the most incursions of any Daemon Primarch. He's just a lot subtler about it than say Angron. This is basically an Aetaos rau Keres with much better powers.
Yeah he's better than the daemon lords like Rau Keres, An'ggrath, or Zarakynel.
Note: Unlike the Emprah rules, these are done from the perspective of Forgeworld albeit lore accurate what with even Lorgar beating An'ggrath.
Magnus, Daemon Primarch of the Thousand Sons Points: 1250
[WS][BS][S][T][W][I][A][LD]SV
[..7..][.6.][.7][9][.9][6][6][10.]2+/3+ invul
Unit Type: Gargantuan Creature (I'm using a heavily modified Mecha Spawn figure)
Unit Composition: 1 Magnus the Red
Special Rules: Living Icon, EW, IWND 5+, Adamantium Will, Psychic Mastery 9, Preferred Enemy (Space Wolves, Nurgle)
Wargear: Armor of the Golden Scarab, Staff of Magnus, Demonic Wings
Powers
Annihilation Maelstrom: Warp Charge Cost:3, 6D6 S:9 AP:4 Shots at 48 inch range
Power of the Warp: Warp Charge Cost 4: S: D, AP:1, 10" blast, 40 inch range. (Magnus had this power back in epic. Apocalypse is starting to have larger and larger scale)
Blessing of the Iron Arm: Warp Charge Cost 2: This grants 1 unit D3 Strength and Toughness to 1 target unit for 1 turn.
Prescience: Warp Charge Cost 1: One unit of your choice may reroll all their saves for 1 turn.
"Blessings" of Tzeentch: Warp Charge Cost 3: Flame Template, Enemy models hit by this turn into Chaos Spawn on a roll of 4+.
Warp Speed: Warp Charge Cost 1:One unit of your choice gains I8 until the end of your turn.
Primarch abilities
I Shall Not Fall: Magnus sheathes himself in psychic energy and only takes D3 wounds from S: D wounds, and can attempt to save each with a 5+ invul.
Legendary General: Magnus gives Thousand Sons units ATSKNF, and LD 10.
Leader of Men: Magnus makes Thousand Sons troops and counts as a sorcerer for rubric marines within 24 inches.
The Spear Tip: Magnus grants Thousand Sons units within 15 inches Fleet, Counter attack, count as defensive and assault grenades.
God among Gods: Magnus is immune to the effects of force weapons, ignores dangerous terrain, and ignores poison on a 3+. Magnus may cast any number of powers per turn in any combination equal to his mastery level.
Wargear
Staff of Magnus: This tank sized heqa staff grants Magnus +2 strength in combat, and he may use it's ability to up his mastery level to 10 for one turn once per game.
Golden Armor of the Scarab: This custom armor grants Magnus a 2+ armor and a 3+ Invul save.



lorgar was weaker than per daemon angron or Horus and their rules aren't good enough to beat Angrath. You reasoning is flawed. Infact so far all of the charactes you have posted have been ridiculous so I give up giving advice to somebody who completely ignores it. Goodbye.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/31 21:19:27


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Houston, Texas

lorgar was weaker than per daemon angron or Horus and their rules aren't good enough to beat Angrath. You reasoning is flawed. Infact so far all of the charactes you have posted have been ridiculous so I give up giving advice to somebody who completely ignores it. Goodbye

Lorgar beat An'ggrath in hand to hand combat.This is well known. Lorgar is also like a small dog compared to Magnus. All this happened in lore and again this is done from the same perspective applied to the Daemon Lords (An'ggrath, Zarakynel, Rau Keres) The primarchs in betrayal are meant to be balanced in a non apoc setting. Magnus is also constantly stated to be the strongest servant of Tzeentch. This is Apoc only and of course it's going to be silly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Mezmerro
There's nothing stopping this from being Magnus sustained by a few billion sacrifices is there? I understand what you're saying.
BTW you seem to be confusing Daemon Primarchs with standard Greater Daemons. If Daemon Magnus was at full power he'd just destroy a large planet by turning all it's oceans to acid and weaving continent wide fire storms.
Edit: I seem to remember a quote about Primarchs having the energy of stars wrapped in flesh. Probably exaggeration. For Daemon Primarchs this probably is no exaggeration.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/08/31 22:11:58


Finally found my quote from a gym buddy born and raised in South Korea:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.
"It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
"It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag." 
   
Made in gb
Ghastly Grave Guard



Uk

 ThePrimordial wrote:
lorgar was weaker than per daemon angron or Horus and their rules aren't good enough to beat Angrath. You reasoning is flawed. Infact so far all of the charactes you have posted have been ridiculous so I give up giving advice to somebody who completely ignores it. Goodbye

If Daemon Magnus was at full power he'd just destroy a large planet by turning all it's oceans to acid and weaving continent wide fire storms.
You really are delusional! Anyway I really am done now...
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Houston, Texas

BaconUprising wrote:
 ThePrimordial wrote:
lorgar was weaker than per daemon angron or Horus and their rules aren't good enough to beat Angrath. You reasoning is flawed. Infact so far all of the charactes you have posted have been ridiculous so I give up giving advice to somebody who completely ignores it. Goodbye

If Daemon Magnus was at full power he'd just destroy a large planet by turning all it's oceans to acid and weaving continent wide fire storms.
You really are delusional! Anyway I really am done now...

Again, it was implied that Magnus could've pulled down the small fleet of cruisers and battlebarges the Space Wolves had with relative ease. This was before he was a Daemon.
Alpha level psykers destroy massive imperator titans with gestures and Magnus is dozens of times stronger.
No not an exaggeration.
BTW delusional about lore? You seem to be forgetting 40k is fantasy. Again you seem to love to argue.
Buddy, Imperator titans have continent destroying weaponry and Magnus would have powers magnitudes stronger.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/08/31 22:21:57


Finally found my quote from a gym buddy born and raised in South Korea:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.
"It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
"It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag." 
   
Made in us
Major




Fortress of Solitude

 ThePrimordial wrote:

@Mezmerro
There's nothing stopping this from being Magnus sustained by a few billion sacrifices is there? I understand what you're saying.
BTW you seem to be confusing Daemon Primarchs with standard Greater Daemons. If Daemon Magnus was at full power he'd just destroy a large planet by turning all it's oceans to acid and weaving continent wide fire storms.
Edit: I seem to remember a quote about Primarchs having the energy of stars wrapped in flesh. Probably exaggeration. For Daemon Primarchs this probably is no exaggeration.

Eh, Angron and his entire retinue were banished by 100 GKTs. Draigo ripped down Mortation by himself, and Draigo is, what, 275 point in game? Daemon primarchs ain't all that.

As for GK just being bad fluff, you're saying that mary-sue "firestorm weaving" primarchs isn't.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/01 13:56:36


Celesticon 2013 Warhammer 40k Tournament- Best General
Sydney August 2014 Warhammer 40k Tournament-Best General 
   
Made in us
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine




New Bedford, MA

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
 ThePrimordial wrote:

@Mezmerro
There's nothing stopping this from being Magnus sustained by a few billion sacrifices is there? I understand what you're saying.
BTW you seem to be confusing Daemon Primarchs with standard Greater Daemons. If Daemon Magnus was at full power he'd just destroy a large planet by turning all it's oceans to acid and weaving continent wide fire storms.
Edit: I seem to remember a quote about Primarchs having the energy of stars wrapped in flesh. Probably exaggeration. For Daemon Primarchs this probably is no exaggeration.

Eh, Angron and his entire retinue were banished by 100 GKTs. Draigo ripped down Mortation by himself, and Draigo is, what, 275 point in game? Daemon primarchs ain't all that.

As for GK just being bad fluff, you're saying that mary-sue "firestorm weaving" primarchs isn't.


Exalted. My thoughts exactly. When he said the daemon primarchs were the nastiest things you would run across on a battlefield, I thought of Draigo -slapping Mortarion around and branding him , and then 100 GK termies banishing (through great sacrifice) Angron and his merry men (not half bad of a story actually considering the space wolves fought too). The Draigo story reminds you that sometimes 40k fluff can be really silly and adding silly to silly doesn't help things.

Dark Angels- 7500 pts
Tau- 5000pts
Chaos Daemons- 3000/2000 pts
Dark Eldar(allies)- 1500 pts
Zoom, Zoom, Iyaan.
 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
I just watched a battleship falling in love with a man.... yep. That's enough anime for the day.
 
   
Made in nl
Aspirant Tech-Adept






 ThePrimordial wrote:
BaconUprising wrote:
 ThePrimordial wrote:
lorgar was weaker than per daemon angron or Horus and their rules aren't good enough to beat Angrath. You reasoning is flawed. Infact so far all of the charactes you have posted have been ridiculous so I give up giving advice to somebody who completely ignores it. Goodbye

If Daemon Magnus was at full power he'd just destroy a large planet by turning all it's oceans to acid and weaving continent wide fire storms.
You really are delusional! Anyway I really am done now...

Again, it was implied that Magnus could've pulled down the small fleet of cruisers and battlebarges the Space Wolves had with relative ease. This was before he was a Daemon.
Alpha level psykers destroy massive imperator titans with gestures and Magnus is dozens of times stronger.
No not an exaggeration.
BTW delusional about lore? You seem to be forgetting 40k is fantasy. Again you seem to love to argue.
Buddy, Imperator titans have continent destroying weaponry and Magnus would have powers magnitudes stronger.


Here we go again huh. They have been telling this on all your proposed rules Threads. Fluff logic isn't used/applied on the gameboard!

Poor ignorant guardsmen, it be but one of many of the great miracles of the Emperor! The Emperor is magic, like Harry Potter, but more magic! A most real and true SPACE WIZARD! And for the last time... I'm not a space plumber.

1K Vostroyan Firstborn
2K Flylords
600 Pts Orks
3K Ad-Mech 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Houston, Texas

Is it so hard to comprehend that this is done from the same perspective as the imperial armour greater daemons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/01 16:55:02


Finally found my quote from a gym buddy born and raised in South Korea:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.
"It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
"It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag." 
   
Made in gb
Angered Reaver Arena Champion




Connah's Quay, North Wales

Daemon lords who are among the first to serve there god making them almost as old as the universe itself. Those ones? What makes you think Magnus is on par, or above these beings? Logar won because he had the most powerful armour there is in any universe, galaxy or fiction ever. Plot armour. Fluff=/=Rules otherwise I could say every marine should be T6 and its save is an invul, and re-rollable because that's how it is in the fluff. Start small, maybe wait for the FW rules for magnus to come out, then buff him up to daemon standards (Ignore perils, re-roll 1's on his invul saves excreta)and go from there, otherwise your just going into mix stupid fluff into rules to make...stupid rules!

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Houston, Texas

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Daemon lords who are among the first to serve there god making them almost as old as the universe itself. Those ones? What makes you think Magnus is on par, or above these beings? Logar won because he had the most powerful armour there is in any universe, galaxy or fiction ever. Plot armour. Fluff=/=Rules otherwise I could say every marine should be T6 and its save is an invul, and re-rollable because that's how it is in the fluff. Start small, maybe wait for the FW rules for magnus to come out, then buff him up to daemon standards (Ignore perils, re-roll 1's on his invul saves excreta)and go from there, otherwise your just going into mix stupid fluff into rules to make...stupid rules!

First off the HH Primarch rules and Imperial armour rules are written from massively different perspectives. One is meant for Apoc, one is meant for normal 40k.
Second off , Magnus is specifically called the most powerful servant of Tzeentch. He's stronger than Rau Keres.
Lorgar didnt have Plot armor when he fought An'ggrath and Magnus is about 4 times stronger.
Primarchs that aren't daemons are already more powerful than daemon lords.
Read your lore. In Mcneil's books when Magnus and Russ get serious they grow to Titan size and start to duke it out. The are every bit as powerful as the legends state at least from McNeil's view.

Finally found my quote from a gym buddy born and raised in South Korea:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.
"It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
"It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag." 
   
Made in ca
Lord of the Fleet






Halifornia, Nova Scotia

Do you want feedback from people Primordial, or are you set in how this unit works?

Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress

+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+

Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Houston, Texas

 Blacksails wrote:
Do you want feedback from people Primordial, or are you set in how this unit works?

I'm getting lore feedback not rules feedback. It's my opinion that the daemon primarchs are stronger than the daemon lords. These ar Apoc only and meant to be a step above the FW daemons. With that in mind how do they look.
Edit: I mean that what little feedback I get implies the perspective that Daemon Primarchs are weaker than daemon lords. That's not the perspective I take.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/01 19:49:20


Finally found my quote from a gym buddy born and raised in South Korea:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.
"It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
"It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag." 
   
Made in ca
Lord of the Fleet






Halifornia, Nova Scotia

The first problem though is that you've designed this to be better than other similar units based on fluff. With that in mind, any adjustment people would recommend would go against your idea that it needs to be better than other daemon primarchs.

So really, to make it somewhat balanced for apoc (where balance is...almost non-existent), its best to use one of the existing daemon primarchs/greater daemons, and tweak it slightly. Don't make something better because one or two pieces of fluff say he won a fight against them. So take a unit like An'ggrath and tweak him to a magic wielder instead of cc monster.

Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress

+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+

Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Houston, Texas

 Blacksails wrote:
The first problem though is that you've designed this to be better than other similar units based on fluff. With that in mind, any adjustment people would recommend would go against your idea that it needs to be better than other daemon primarchs.

So really, to make it somewhat balanced for apoc (where balance is...almost non-existent), its best to use one of the existing daemon primarchs/greater daemons, and tweak it slightly. Don't make something better because one or two pieces of fluff say he won a fight against them. So take a unit like An'ggrath and tweak him to a magic wielder instead of cc monster.

I ignore the white dwarf Angron rules again due to my perspective and due to recent fluff with Angron being unscathed by Titan plasma weapons. I'll lower W, T, I, & A by one a piece.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/01 20:05:52


Finally found my quote from a gym buddy born and raised in South Korea:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.
"It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
"It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag." 
   
Made in gb
Ghastly Grave Guard



Uk

Angron was never shot by Titan plasma. Lorgar was and he very nearly died.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/01 20:11:29


 
   
Made in ca
Lord of the Fleet






Halifornia, Nova Scotia

And there's your problem.

Your perspective is very different from most other people's perspective. Further to this, what most people continue to tell you, is that quite simply...

Fluff does not equal rules.

But, I'll try and explain this a little further.

The 40k lore/fluff is crazy, wacky, and over the top. A setting where a lone space marine will kill hundreds of orkz, a dozen nobz, and a war chief. But if we took that fluff literally, a marine would be 400pts. However, we don't, because most people understand the backdrop is very different from the game. The game has to be balanced and a touch more 'realistic' or reasonable to be playable.

The game functions not on a direct 'abilities=stats', but on a relative scale.

If WS3 is a normal trained human being, than WS4 is better on a scale where WS10 is the best available option. So what does WS5 represent, or what does WS6 represent? There's no right or wrong answer, but there are tales of WS6 characters doing absurdly amazing things, while some WS5 characters get punked by lesser beings. All we can do is use the poor amount of stats we have to represent everything, by using a relative scale. We also have to use pre-established stats to base our custom ones off of.

But never the fluff directly. It only creates absurd balance issues. The fluff has things where alpha level psykers can wipe out entire armies with a sneeze. A custom alpha level psyker using the fluff would be able to automatically eliminate the other player's army. But that would be silly, not fun, and not even a little balanced.

Your design philosophy shouldn't be to make things better than existing units because somewhere in the fluff something happened. It should be to make things that are different, balanced, fun, and creative. They should fill a role that doesn't exist, without invalidating other existing units.

Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress

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Made in gb
Ghastly Grave Guard



Uk

 Blacksails wrote:
And there's your problem.

Your perspective is very different from most other people's perspective. Further to this, what most people continue to tell you, is that quite simply...

Fluff does not equal rules.

But, I'll try and explain this a little further.

The 40k lore/fluff is crazy, wacky, and over the top. A setting where a lone space marine will kill hundreds of orkz, a dozen nobz, and a war chief. But if we took that fluff literally, a marine would be 400pts. However, we don't, because most people understand the backdrop is very different from the game. The game has to be balanced and a touch more 'realistic' or reasonable to be playable.

The game functions not on a direct 'abilities=stats', but on a relative scale.

If WS3 is a normal trained human being, than WS4 is better on a scale where WS10 is the best available option. So what does WS5 represent, or what does WS6 represent? There's no right or wrong answer, but there are tales of WS6 characters doing absurdly amazing things, while some WS5 characters get punked by lesser beings. All we can do is use the poor amount of stats we have to represent everything, by using a relative scale. We also have to use pre-established stats to base our custom ones off of.

But never the fluff directly. It only creates absurd balance issues. The fluff has things where alpha level psykers can wipe out entire armies with a sneeze. A custom alpha level psyker using the fluff would be able to automatically eliminate the other player's army. But that would be silly, not fun, and not even a little balanced.

Your design philosophy shouldn't be to make things better than existing units because somewhere in the fluff something happened. It should be to make things that are different, balanced, fun, and creative. They should fill a role that doesn't exist, without invalidating other existing units.
Exalted to try to make it sink in.
   
Made in us
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine




New Bedford, MA

 Blacksails wrote:
And there's your problem.

Your perspective is very different from most other people's perspective. Further to this, what most people continue to tell you, is that quite simply...

Fluff does not equal rules.

But, I'll try and explain this a little further.

The 40k lore/fluff is crazy, wacky, and over the top. A setting where a lone space marine will kill hundreds of orkz, a dozen nobz, and a war chief. But if we took that fluff literally, a marine would be 400pts. However, we don't, because most people understand the backdrop is very different from the game. The game has to be balanced and a touch more 'realistic' or reasonable to be playable.

The game functions not on a direct 'abilities=stats', but on a relative scale.

If WS3 is a normal trained human being, than WS4 is better on a scale where WS10 is the best available option. So what does WS5 represent, or what does WS6 represent? There's no right or wrong answer, but there are tales of WS6 characters doing absurdly amazing things, while some WS5 characters get punked by lesser beings. All we can do is use the poor amount of stats we have to represent everything, by using a relative scale. We also have to use pre-established stats to base our custom ones off of.

But never the fluff directly. It only creates absurd balance issues. The fluff has things where alpha level psykers can wipe out entire armies with a sneeze. A custom alpha level psyker using the fluff would be able to automatically eliminate the other player's army. But that would be silly, not fun, and not even a little balanced.

Your design philosophy shouldn't be to make things better than existing units because somewhere in the fluff something happened. It should be to make things that are different, balanced, fun, and creative. They should fill a role that doesn't exist, without invalidating other existing units.


Exalted because I agree.

Dark Angels- 7500 pts
Tau- 5000pts
Chaos Daemons- 3000/2000 pts
Dark Eldar(allies)- 1500 pts
Zoom, Zoom, Iyaan.
 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
I just watched a battleship falling in love with a man.... yep. That's enough anime for the day.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Houston, Texas

 Blacksails wrote:
And there's your problem.

Your perspective is very different from most other people's perspective. Further to this, what most people continue to tell you, is that quite simply...

Fluff does not equal rules.

But, I'll try and explain this a little further.

The 40k lore/fluff is crazy, wacky, and over the top. A setting where a lone space marine will kill hundreds of orkz, a dozen nobz, and a war chief. But if we took that fluff literally, a marine would be 400pts. However, we don't, because most people understand the backdrop is very different from the game. The game has to be balanced and a touch more 'realistic' or reasonable to be playable.

The game functions not on a direct 'abilities=stats', but on a relative scale.

If WS3 is a normal trained human being, than WS4 is better on a scale where WS10 is the best available option. So what does WS5 represent, or what does WS6 represent? There's no right or wrong answer, but there are tales of WS6 characters doing absurdly amazing things, while some WS5 characters get punked by lesser beings. All we can do is use the poor amount of stats we have to represent everything, by using a relative scale. We also have to use pre-established stats to base our custom ones off of.

But never the fluff directly. It only creates absurd balance issues. The fluff has things where alpha level psykers can wipe out entire armies with a sneeze. A custom alpha level psyker using the fluff would be able to automatically eliminate the other player's army. But that would be silly, not fun, and not even a little balanced.

Your design philosophy shouldn't be to make things better than existing units because somewhere in the fluff something happened. It should be to make things that are different, balanced, fun, and creative. They should fill a role that doesn't exist, without invalidating other existing units.

If this was directly fluff accurate he'd be about a million points and wipe out titan legions and scare the gak out of space marine legions. But it's not now is it? It has a greater level of nerf from fluff to tabletop than Space marines
It's not fluff accurate. The fluff has a part in telling the rules what to do. For example an assault marine squad will annihilate a squad of guardsmen with little effort. You know why? Because marines are better than guardsmen fluffwise.

Just like all the fluff has primarchs slapping around daemon lords like An'ggrath and Ka'bandha. Also like the fluff specifically mentions primarchs being the strongest servants of the chaos gods.

I'd like to mention An'ggrath gets punked by inquisitors whereas the daemon primarchs rarely actually get wounded. They simply run out of energy to power their manifestation.
Angron was trying to kill the 100 paladins before they cast a spell that would send him back to the warp. Did you actually think they could hurt him?

Regardless the fluff has a part in informing the crunch. We've been over this a lot and he'd kill titan legions himself if it was fluff accurate.
But as it stands a Warlord Titan would hand him his derriere.

How does he invalidate the other Daemon Lords? An'ggrath and Zarakynel are dramatically better in HTH.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/01 21:19:53


Finally found my quote from a gym buddy born and raised in South Korea:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.
"It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
"It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag." 
   
Made in gb
Ghastly Grave Guard



Uk

Did you ever read the bit of fluff that mentions Magnus getting the sh*t kicked into him by a space wolf lord and or 5 space wolves and a dreadnought? Daemon primarchs couldn't and never would be able to destroy a Titan legion and no fluff claims they can. Additionally in many sources of fluff other daemons are mentioned to be more powerful than the daemon primarchs. For example, the massive tzeentch daemon is said to be tzeentch's most powerful servant, Ka bandah and doom reed in various sources are claimed to be more powerful than daemon Angron.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Houston, Texas

BaconUprising wrote:
Did you ever read the bit of fluff that mentions Magnus getting the sh*t kicked into him by a space wolf lord and or 5 space wolves and a dreadnought? Daemon primarchs couldn't and never would be able to destroy a Titan legion and no fluff claims they can. Additionally in many sources of fluff other daemons are mentioned to be more powerful than the daemon primarchs. For example, the massive tzeentch daemon is said to be tzeentch's most powerful servant, Ka bandah and doom reed in various sources are claimed to be more powerful than daemon Angron.

When Magnus first appears in the battle for Prospero .he slows time massively so only he and Russ can fight and stops the entire loyalist advance by turning a massive lake next to entrance of the city to acid.
That's also very old fluff. What happened was Magnus basically remembering "oh gak, I'm a primarch" and then he slaughters the wolf lord.
About the titan legion destroying: Fluff specifically mentions Magnus can turn oceans to acid, and shatter titans with his hands, but to give a specific example: He grew to the size of a warlord titan and slaughters about 30 great gargants with his hands.
And no, Magnus is always mentioned as the greatest servant of Tzeentch, Rau Keres is second rate.
Edit: All the primarchs were created with a purpose in mind. Magnus was made to sit on the golden throne and be unaffected. When Malacdor sat in the golden throne (he could move moons) he was vaporized in a couple hours. This is only implied. Regardless, Magnus is stated to be way stronger than Malacdor due to being "the second strongest psyker in the galaxy".

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/09/01 21:52:05


Finally found my quote from a gym buddy born and raised in South Korea:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.
"It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
"It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag." 
   
 
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