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If I cast the book on a unit whenever in the movement phase, do ICs joining that unit (which happens at the end of the phase) get the benefit (or detriment) of the new invulnerable save?

Thanks.

Doesn't the Independant character special rule mention this kind of "effects on the squad/ effects on the character case?
Might be in the FAQ

No the IC would not get the benefit as he was not part of the unit when the grimoire was put on them. IC's do not join units untl the end of the movement phase, grimoire is any point of the movement phase. By the time the IC joins it is too late.

The flip side is, if the IC is part of the unit that has the grimoire put on them before they move, he will then have the benefit and can spilt off and retain the benefit.

Grimoire can be used at any time during the movement phase. So I guess the only real answer is where joining the unit at the end of the movement phase is still part of said phase.

The IC rule states you can only join or leave a unit during the movement phase, so that is something to go on. The vector strike rule causes wounds at the end of the movement phase and can also cause morale checks, which occur at the same time.

So HIWPI would be you can join the IC to the unit then use the grimoire remembering that player whose turn it is currently determines order of events that occur simultaneously (p9 BRB).

When something ends it ends, you cannot do the grimoire in the movement phase and say it is the same time as the end of the movement phase, it is one or the other.

In regards to the decision of timing issues are you trying to say that you can do



b) IC joins the unit end of the movement phase

Then

a) Grimoire in the movement phase

By the time the IC has joined the unit the movement phase has ended.

MarkyMark wrote:
IC's do not join units untl the end of the movement phase

You're getting your editions mixed up.
IC's join at the end of their movement phase, not the movement phase.
They don't leave units until the end of the movement phase however.

 grendel083 wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
IC's do not join units untl the end of the movement phase

You're getting your editions mixed up.
IC's join at the end of their movement phase, not the movement phase.
They don't leave units until the end of the movement phase however.

Just like psyhic powers are start of the pskyers movement phase, yet we all know that to mean its start of the movement phase?. I suspect that their movement phase is to stop me putting a IC between 2 units and saying he is changing units at end of opponents movement phase.

MarkyMark wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
IC's do not join units untl the end of the movement phase

You're getting your editions mixed up.
IC's join at the end of their movement phase, not the movement phase.
They don't leave units until the end of the movement phase however.

Just like psyhic powers are start of the pskyers movement phase, yet we all know that to mean its start of the movement phase?. I suspect that their movement phase is to stop me putting a IC between 2 units and saying he is changing units at end of opponents movement phase.

You can't leave an IC between two units, there must be a clear >2" distance from the unit they don't wish to join.

Once an IC joins a unit you're free to continue moving other units, as their movement phase is finished. This is reinforced by the sentence stating that the unit the character has just joined can move no further.

If the Grimoire is used at the start of the movement phase, then you're right it's too late to effect the IC.
If it's used any time in the movement phase, then it can be used after the IC has joined.

Fair enough, I didnt relise the full rules of the IC rules. This acutally benefits me hugely with my current list!

MarkyMark wrote:
When something ends it ends, you cannot do the grimoire in the movement phase and say it is the same time as the end of the movement phase, it is one or the other.

In regards to the decision of timing issues are you trying to say that you can do



b) IC joins the unit end of the movement phase

Then

a) Grimoire in the movement phase

By the time the IC has joined the unit the movement phase has ended.

So ICs can't join units at all then (after deployment), as they can only join or leave during the movement phase. P39 BRB forth paragraph

He cannot join or leave during any other phase

It all comes down to if the end of a phase is still part of that phase.

You're getting your editions mixed up.
IC's join at the end of their movement phase, not the movement phase.
They don't leave units until the end of the movement phase however

You are making a distinction between the movement phase and the characters movement phase. If ICs have their own movement phase when does this phase occur? During who's turn and what are its sub phase and where is this all defined? I'm only seeing 1 movement phase per player detailed in my rulebook.

 FlingitNow wrote:

You're getting your editions mixed up.
IC's join at the end of their movement phase, not the movement phase.
They don't leave units until the end of the movement phase however

You are making a distinction between the movement phase and the characters movement phase. If ICs have their own movement phase when does this phase occur? During who's turn and what are its sub phase and where is this all defined? I'm only seeing 1 movement phase per player detailed in my rulebook.

I'm making no distinction, check the rules - p39.
Their movement in the movement phase. No idea how you got so confused as to think it's a separate phase, there's nothing in my post that hints at that.

 grendel083 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

You're getting your editions mixed up.
IC's join at the end of their movement phase, not the movement phase.
They don't leave units until the end of the movement phase however

You are making a distinction between the movement phase and the characters movement phase. If ICs have their own movement phase when does this phase occur? During who's turn and what are its sub phase and where is this all defined? I'm only seeing 1 movement phase per player detailed in my rulebook.

I'm making no distinction, check the rules - p39.
Their movement in the movement phase. No idea how you got so confused as to think it's a separate phase, there's nothing in my post that hints at that.

Highlighted part of your post where you claimed ICs movement phase was different to the normal movement phase.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

You're getting your editions mixed up.
IC's join at the end of their movement phase, not the movement phase.
They don't leave units until the end of the movement phase however

You are making a distinction between the movement phase and the characters movement phase. If ICs have their own movement phase when does this phase occur? During who's turn and what are its sub phase and where is this all defined? I'm only seeing 1 movement phase per player detailed in my rulebook.

I'm making no distinction, check the rules - p39.
Their movement in the movement phase. No idea how you got so confused as to think it's a separate phase, there's nothing in my post that hints at that.

Highlighted part of your post where you claimed ICs movement phase was different to the normal movement phase.

Not my claim, that's almost a direct quote from the rule.
"....coherence distance of a friendly unit at the end of their Movement phase" - page 39.

Yes and "their Movement phase" = "The Movement Phase" because no where does it tell us that their is more than 1 movement phase or what would happen in an ICs own Movement phase. So either ICs can never join units (as we'll never get to the ICs movement phase as it is not included in the turn sequence) of they join at the end of the movement phase.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yes and "their Movement phase" = "The Movement Phase" because no where does it tell us that their is more than 1 movement phase or what would happen in an ICs own Movement phase. So either ICs can never join units (as we'll never get to the ICs movement phase as it is not included in the turn sequence) of they join at the end of the movement phase.

Nope, not correct I'm afraid. Again nothing suggested an actual separate phase.
End of their movement phase is not a separate phase, but quite simply the end of their movement within the movement phase. It's not the end of the movement phase.
This is proven in the IC rule (p39) and was also pointed out in one of my posts above.

The quote that proves this is as follows:
"Note that, after an Independent Character joins a unit, that unit can move no further that Movement Phase"
This shows very clearly that joining is not the end of the movement phase, but instead the end of the IC's movement.
Leaving a unit however is the end of the phase.

Still doesnt say it is the end of their movement phase though does it?, you are just adding that in. It says they can move no further but there is still other things that can be done in the movement phase which do not require moving.

End of their movement phase is not a separate phase, but quite simply the end of their movement within the movement phase.

Sorry but citation required. End of their Movement Phase is the end of the Movement Phase in which they perform their actions or it is a separate Movement Phase for the IC unless it is defined that Movement phase =/= Phase.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Sorry but citation required.

Again? You can't check back on the thread or look at the rule itself?

BRB page 39 "Independent Character wrote:In order to join a unit, an independent Character simply has to move so that he is within the 2" unit coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their Movement Phase

BRB page 39 "Independent Character wrote:Note that, after an Independent Character joins a unit, that unit can move no further that Movement phase

This is showing that things can happen during the Movement phase after the Character has joined, including further movement (but not by the joined unit). This could not happen if joining happens at the end of the Movement phase.

This further reinforced throughout the rule, it makes reference to "their" and "its" Movement phase when talking about joining.
The only time the rule uses "the" movement phase is when talking about leaving a unit.
Had the rule been as you claim, then in each case it would have stated as "the" movement phase, and the second quote above would not have been needed.

End of their Movement Phase is the end of the Movement Phase

Hopefully you can now see that this isn't correct. If not, please find a rule proving your case.

MarkyMark wrote:
Still doesnt say it is the end of their movement phase though does it?, you are just adding that in. It says they can move no further but there is still other things that can be done in the movement phase which do not require moving.

By your interpretation, no there is not.
Because it happens at the end of the phase. Meaning that anything happening after would be after the end, and therefore not in the phase.

ICs join at the end of their movement.

 grendel083 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Sorry but citation required.

Again? You can't check back on the thread or look at the rule itself?

BRB page 39 "Independent Character wrote:In order to join a unit, an independent Character simply has to move so that he is within the 2" unit coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their Movement Phase

BRB page 39 "Independent Character wrote:Note that, after an Independent Character joins a unit, that unit can move no further that Movement phase

This is showing that things can happen during the Movement phase after the Character has joined, including further movement (but not by the joined unit). This could not happen if joining happens at the end of the Movement phase.

This further reinforced throughout the rule, it makes reference to "their" and "its" Movement phase when talking about joining.
The only time the rule uses "the" movement phase is when talking about leaving a unit.
Had the rule been as you claim, then in each case it would have stated as "the" movement phase, and the second quote above would not have been needed.

End of their Movement Phase is the end of the Movement Phase

Hopefully you can now see that this isn't correct. If not, please find a rule proving your case.

Sorry but that doesn't answer my question. You made a statement I asked for a citation you haven't provided. Please tell me where an ICs movement phase is defined as the part of the movement phase where the IC moves. None of what you have posted states that or supports your claim. I have a whole chapter defining what the rules mean by movement phase you have a different meaning so please state where that is defined. Or concede that The Movement Phase = Their Movement Phase.

Do ICs not move in the movement phase? They really do, I have made no claim that they have a separate phase.
I've also shown that joining does not happen at the end of the movement phase, but at the end of the IC's move.

If you wish to claim they join at the end of the movement phase, please back up the claim with some rules.

grendel, I'm going to re-post something you posted:

BRB page 39 "Independent Character wrote:In order to join a unit, an independent Character simply has to move so that he is within the 2" unit coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their Movement Phase

I underlined the important part.

Aye, there is only one Movement phase.
Once the IC has finished moving, they can move no further. Their part of the Movement phase is over. That doesn't end the entire Movement phase.

Do ICs not move in the movement phase? They really do, I have made no claim that they have a separate phase.

Yes they move in the movement phase. You are also claiming their is an IC's Movement Phase. You have stated whether this is a separate phase or a sub phase, in fact you appear to be claiming this is not even a phase. Yet you have nothing you support the existence of an ICs Movement Phase.

I've also shown that joining does not happen at the end of the movement phase, but at the end of the IC's move.

No you haven't. Please give a citation for this claim.

If you wish to claim they join at the end of the movement phase, please back up the claim with some rules.

You've already posted the rules that back up my position and Happyjew has required for you. But also see BrB page 9 Turn Sequence and then pages 10-11 for the definition of Movement Phase.

Except (and I'm not an English Major, so I could be wrong), isn't "their" plural, whilst "Independent Character" is singular? So it could also be read as

In order to join a unit, an independent Character simply has to move so that he is within the 2" unit coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of (the IC and unit's) Movement Phase.

If I'm wrong, like I said I'm not an English Major (heck, I ain't even an English Minor).

 FlingitNow wrote:
You are also claiming their is an IC's Movement Phase.

More than once I have stated they do not have a separate phase. More than once I have asked where you got this incorrect idea from. If you wish to debate this please read what I have actually read. So far you have clearly demonstrated that you haven't read my posts.

You have stated whether this is a separate phase or a sub phase, in fact you appear to be claiming this is not even a phase. Yet you have nothing you support the existence of an ICs Movement Phase.

Seriously? You haven't read my posts at all. Again I've made no claim of a separate phase, sub phase or anything like that. There is one movement phase. The IC moves during this phase.

I've also shown that joining does not happen at the end of the movement phase, but at the end of the IC's move.

No you haven't. Please give a citation for this claim.

Yes I have, since you've proven you haven't read it, please scroll up.

Are you still claiming the IC joins at the end of the Movement phase? If so please post some rules supporting this, and please actually read the other posts in this thread.

You're getting your editions mixed up.
IC's join at the end of their movement phase, not the movement phase.

There you go claiming "their Movement Phase" =/= "The Movement Phase"

Therefore "their Movement Phase" has a different definition from the movement phase. Please provide where this is defined. This is a stance you have maintained without any rules backing.

BRB page 39 "Independent Character" wrote:
In order to join a unit, an independent Character simply has to move so that he is within the 2" unit coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their Movement Phase

Here we can see it says "end of their Movement Phase". Cool how many movement phases are defined in the book? Great only 1 so we know that is what they are talking about. Please cite where "their Movement Phase" is defined or concede. You have a definition of "their Movement Phase":

grendel083 wrote:End of their movement phase is not a separate phase, but quite simply the end of their movement within the movement phase.

But you have yet to cite where this is defined. This is literally your made up definition so unless you can point to the page where "their Movement Phase" is defined I'm going to go by what the BRB defines as Movement Phase...

 FlingitNow wrote:

IC's join at the end of their movement phase, not the movement phase.

There you go claiming "their Movement Phase" =/= "The Movement Phase"

So you miss understood.
What I was actually stating is:
The end of their movement phase is not the end of the movement phase.
End of their movement phase being the end of their move. Not the end of the entire movement phase.
These aren't separate phases.

You still haven't supplied anything that shows the IC joins at the end of the entire movement phase.
You do have a way of proving this I assume?

End of their movement phase being the end of their move. Not the end of the entire movement phase

Citation. You keep making this claim with no rules support. Please show where it defines "their Movement Phase". Again I have to ask you for ANY rules to support your claim. If you do not show where "their Movement Phase" is defined as something and is therefore not "the Movement Phase", then I'll take that as you conceding.

You still haven't supplied anything that shows the IC joins at the end of the entire movement phase.
You do have a way of proving this I assume?

I actually have even you have with the rules posted. The IC rules literally state this as has been quoted several times.