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In my view and the view of everyone I talk to the Daemon Primarchs are stronger than the Daemon lords from Imperial Armour (An'ggrath, Zarakynel, Rau Keres).
Accept the Above or don't post
The last person who tried to do this got in very deep gak for no real reason due to not being specific, feeding derailment, and lack of patience
These are not meant to be in line the Forge World 30k Primarchs as these are meant for normal 40k. These are meant for Apoc only.
I understand that the fluff doesn't have complete control of the rules, but it does have a subtle influence.
Without further ado.....
Magnus the Red, Daemon Primarch of Tzeentch
[WS][BS][S][T][W][.I.][A][LD] SV
[..7..][.7.][.6][8][.8.][7.][6][.10] 2+/3+
Unit Type: MC
Unit Compostion: 1 Magnus the Red
Special Rules: Unique Psychic Powers, EW, IWND 4+, Fleet, Fearless, Terror, Psychic Mastery 7
Wargear: Scarab Armor, Staff of Magnus, Book of Magnus
**POWERS**
-Blood of Golgotha: Witchfire / Cost:3/ 6D6 S:8 AP:4 Shots/ 36 inch range (this is a Transcendent C'tan power and seeing as it already exists and this is more expensive hopefully there's no problem)
-Meteora: Witchfire/ Cost 5 / S: D/ AP:1/ 10 inch blast/ 40 inch range / (He cant do both the same turn)
-Prescience (of the horribly short sighted and alzheimers ridden Magnus): Cost 1/ 1 unit rerolls all failed saves/ 30 inch range
-Divine Control: Cost:1/ Magnus rerolls any single di roll
-Armor of Thorns: Cost 2:/ Successfu unsavedl wounds to Magnus in CQC result in D4 S:6 AP:4 hits against the attacker. So 2 Wounds done would be D8 S:6 AP:4 shots.
-Divine Intervention: Cost:3/ Magnus can only use this power when a 1K sons unit dies and he has LOS/ D6 1 wound models return and act exactly the same as before/ power works like if you attached reanimation to marines. Can occur if sweeping advanced. This can work on Thousand Sons termintators ( terminators with the MOT ). Not Dreadnoughts, due to absurd levels of OP.
-Blessing of the Iron Arm: Blessing/ Cost:2/ Target: 1 unit Magnus has LOS to within 30 inches/ Target unit gains D3 Strength and Toughness, and a 5+ FNP for one turn.
I want to throw in the size changing power he had, but that would either be really underwhelming to the point of stupidity, or OP as gak
**WARGEAR**
-Scarab Armour: This armor made by the best of smiths grants Magnus a 2+ armor and a 3+ Invul save. This armor is immune to effects like the Vindicare Shield Breaker
-Staff of Magnus: This massive heqa staff is a force weapon that grants Magnus +1 strength in combat. Magnus may use this staff to up his mastery to 9 for two turns once per game.
**PRIMARCH RULES**
-The Sorcerer King: Magnus has a 3+ Deny the witch, and ignores Perils of the Warp on a 3+. Powers cast by Magnus may not be denied. Magnus is immune to Shadows In the Warp. Magnus may not become a herald or chaos spawn for any reason. Powers denied by Magnus are sent back at their casters (If he denies Enfeeble, It gets cast on the one who cast it)
-Father of the Thousand Sons: Thousand Sons units have their BS and WS upped to 5.
-Master of the Warp: Magnus may give 2 units of your choice in reserves perfect deepstriking (they do not scatter when deep striking)
-Monomolecular Intellect: Magnus is one of the best strategists amongst his brothers. A force containing Magnus may seize the initiative on a 4+.
-Iron Toughness: Magnus may reroll failed IWND rolls

Let's get some feedback on this and then we'll continue. The powers are more creative than the last topic.
Edit: Magnus can use any combination of the above powers and doesn't have any BRB powers.
Edit: I didn't know this when I namedropped this (I knew of the significance) But Golgotha is the name of the hill where Jesus was crucified. Actually a ridiculously cool name.
Edit: Added Wargear rules
Edit: Upped Toughness to 8, Inititative to 7, and Ballistic Skill to 7
Edit: Buffed the Staff of Magnus. It can now be used to up Mastery to 9 for two turns once per game. Added Blessing of the Iron Arm.
Edit: Added the mainstay Primarch rules. Meant to show leadership
Edit: Upped It Will Not Die to the standard Primarch 4+. Added Iron Toughness, and addressed Alex's comments.

How many points were you thinking?

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
How many points were you thinking?

About 1250. If we have problems we'll go higher.

This needs a lot of work in terms of pure mechanics, let alone balance. Here are mechanics problems with some of the rules, I'll gradually add to it.

Divine intervention: where is the new unit placed upon the destruction of the old? Can it exceed the size of the initial unit (e.g. can a roll of 6 revive 6 men upon the death of a 5 man unit, I don't have the chaos codex so this may be already solved by minimum unit sizes)? Can the unit act as normal on the turn it revives? Can it be placed in combat? Does the old unit give up a kill point? Does the new one? Can it score? Can this be used to add to an already existing unit? E.g. unit A dies, can he add the D6 men to unit B? Are they even placed as a unit, or are they D6 one man squads? Can they then be joined by ICs or are they units which 'always consist of one model' or whatever the wording for IC restrictions is?


Prescience: is it compulsory or can you choose not to reroll?

 motyak wrote:
This needs a lot of work in terms of pure mechanics, let alone balance. Here are mechanics problems with just 1 of the rules

Divine intervention: where is the new unit placed upon the destruction of the old? Can it exceed the size of the initial unit (e.g. can a roll of 6 revive 6 men upon the death of a 5 man unit, I don't have the chaos codex so this may be already solved by minimum unit sizes)? Can the unit act as normal on the turn it revives? Can it be placed in combat? Does the old unit give up a kill point? Does the new one? Can it score? Can this be used to add to an already existing unit? E.g. unit A dies, can he add the D6 men to unit B? Are they even placed as a unit, or are they D6 one man squads? Can they then be joined by ICs or are they units which 'always consist of one model' or whatever the wording for IC restrictions is?

I don't know of any 6 man units. They stand back up akin to Necrons. Obviousy no exceeding the size of the initial unit. Yes it can score. Not that hard to understand. You're asking some pretty dumb questions.
What do you mean balance? Compare this to the Reaver titan which is Apoc only also. The Reaver has similar destructive capability and is dramatically more durable. This as is stands is moderately underpowered.
It's only a starting point.

Not really, these questions are necessary for the rule to function in game. And you didn't address them all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, is the scarab armour, staff of magnus etc wargear in an existing book?

 motyak wrote:
Not really, these questions are necessary for the rule to function in game. And you didn't address them all.

I answered the ones that had any semblance of thought before asking (plus the scoring)
No offense meant, but cool your jets.
Edit: Of course not, already said I wanted initial feedback. Please read the OP or don't post. Any powers aren't compulsory. Think before asking.

Divine control: when can magnus use this die roll, can it only be used on a roll pertaining to him or is it for his army as a whole, can you cast it multiple times to get multiple rerolls

Also remember rule number 1, politeness. You are a new user, don't get in trouble early in your stay at dakka

 motyak wrote:
Divine control: when can magnus use this die roll, can it only be used on a roll pertaining to him or is it for his army as a whole, can you cast it multiple times to get multiple rerolls

Also remember rule number 1, politeness. You are a new user, don't get in trouble early in your stay at dakka

It says a di roll. That implies any di roll.
Think before asking and remember this rule yourself. It applies to thoughtful critique.
And obviously asking useful questions. I'm trying to be nice, cool your jets. We'll get along fine. All these questions you're asking could be answered by yourself with a bit of thought, or were already answered.

Rules need to be written in a clear and unambiguous way so that people coming into this thread to help can do that effectively. I'd recommend adding in the questions of mine that you have answered into the rules in the OP so that it becomes a better written ruleset, and future users posting here don't have to ask them again if they miss my posts.

 motyak wrote:
Rules need to be written in a clear and unambiguous way so that people coming into this thread to help can do that effectively. I'd recommend adding in the questions of mine that you have answered into the rules in the OP so that it becomes a better written ruleset, and future users posting here don't have to ask them again if they miss my posts.

Done.

Thanks, but now there is an unintended (I think) consequence of the edit, they can't get back up if they were sweeping advanced. So you may need to say say that it works as re animation protocols but doesn't stop after sweeping advances. It also now means that a completely wiped out unit can't benefit from it.

 motyak wrote:
Thanks, but now there is an unintended (I think) consequence of the edit, they can't get back up if they were sweeping advanced. So you may need to say say that it works as re animation protocols but doesn't stop after sweeping advances

I really meant this as simply how it's resolved. But, I'll bite and edit it


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Of Note: I intend to have this be able to compete with other Apoc only units (somewhat). We'll add more beneficial rules later when we get more feedback. I have ideas for the wargear.

I'm not aware of any thousand sons terminators, maybe it should read as any tzeentch marked non character infantry unit?

You know the normal Primarch rules can only be used in Apoc yeah?

Also you don't explain any of his wargear. Kind of hard to critique if you don't even explain everything and insult people trying to help.

 Skimask Mohawk wrote:
You know the normal Primarch rules can only be used in Apoc yeah?

Also you don't explain any of his wargear. Kind of hard to critique if you don't even explain everything and insult people trying to help.

There goes that annoying "yeah" thing. Even with commas that's not proper grammar, but that's just a hang up of mine.
Yeah I have the book with me right now. They can be used in any 2000+ point standard game. In exact wording "your points in the lords of war slot cannot be more than 1/4 of your total army"
If they were Apoc only they'd be a lot tougher.
Come on man, read the first post. I already said multiple times I'm getting feedback on the powers first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 motyak wrote:
I'm not aware of any thousand sons terminators, maybe it should read as any tzeentch marked non character infantry unit?

There were 1K Sons termies back in 2nd edition. But for these purposes I mean termies modeled appropriately and with the MOT.

I like the statlines (they feel like the next step up from primarch). I am digging how you balanced the powers around the ML7. So that if you cast meteora for 5, then you are somewhat limited on what you can cast. I will also say that dropping Magnus from being a flying gargantuan creature to a regular MC was pretty cool. Although he probably could be gargantuan since you removed those silly primarch abilities which looked like they were thrown on there to cover for any weaknesses. Looking forward to seeing wargear, so we can talk turkey on the cost.

Of course, keeping him a regular MC would also make for tougher decisions in-game for your warp charge. Especially if he has a force staff. Decisions like "Do I use a WC to inflict ID, or smash?". That is if you go that route. Gargantuan are S: D in close combat; so you could do that and make the staff a defense against perils results (of course, I believe that would probably increase the cost of the model).

I'm going to go through this and edit some of your rules so that they are more useable on the field without you actually being present to let players know your intentions. Let me know if I've misinterpreted them. I'm not changing balance/anything, just translating them for more general use.

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:

Magnus the Red, Daemon Primarch of Tzeentch
[WS][BS][S][T][W][.I.][A][LD] SV
[..7..][.6.][.6][7][.8.][6.][6][.10] 2+/3+
Unit Type: MC
Unit Compostion: 1 Magnus the Red
Special Rules: Unique Psychic Powers, EW, IWND 5+, Fleet, Fearless, Terror, Psychic Mastery 7
Wargear: Scarab Armor, Staff of Magnus, Book of Magnus

Scarab Armor: X
Staff of Magnus: X
Book of Magnus: X

**POWERS**
-Blood of Golgotha: Type: Witchfire: Cost: Warp Charge 3; Range: 36" S:8 AP:4 Assault 6D6 I put assault here but you may have intended Heavy/something else. This is how PSAs should be put though, because uniformity is important
-Meteora: Type: Witchfire Cost: Warp Charge 5; Range: 40" S: D AP: 1 Heavy 1, 10" Blast
-Prescience: Type: Blessing Cost: Warp Charge 1; One friendly unit within 30" and LOS of Magnus may reroll all failed saves and FNP rolls I added in FNP here because I think that is what you meant, since it isn't a save and so requires the additional mention
-Divine Control: Type: Blessing Cost:Warp Charge 1; The player controlling Magnus can reroll any single die roll over the next game turn, including opponents dice. This can be a single die from a test involving 2D6 (e.g. Leadership checks). You didn't answer if this stacked, so I assumed that it didn't. If it does, you need to mention that as well
-Armor of Thorns: Type: Blessing Cost: Warp Charge 2; When Magnus suffers an unsaved wound in CC, and fails his FNP, the unit which caused the wound(s) suffers D3 S:6 AP:4 hits per wound. For example, if a Space Marine Captain wounded Magnus twice, he would suffer 2D3 S:6 AP:4 hits. You probably shouldn't make players roll dice that aren't used anywhere else in the entire system of 40K. I changed it to D3, but you can change it to D6 if you'd prefer it
-Divine Intervention: Type: Blessing Cost: Warp Charge 3; Magnus can use this power on any "My Will Be Done" marker within his LOS. D6 1 wound models from the unit the marker represents are placed on the marker in deepstrike formation, following deepstrike rules. If the unit would suffer a mishap, move the marker towards Magnus' current position until the unit will no longer suffer a mishap. I made this a blessing because I wasn't sure what else it would be

I'm adding this section because you need it for some of the things you used to have in the powers section above
**SPECIAL RULES**
Nearly Unlimited Power: Magnus can only use one Psychic Shooting Attack per turn, regardless of his Warp Charge You may have meant that he could cast Blood of Golgotha twice, and is so just change this to "must choose at the start of the shooting phase which Psychic Shooting Attack he will use for this phase. He can use this as long as he has the available Warp Charge" or something like that
My Will Be Done: When an Infantry unit with the Mark of Tzeentch without the IC special rule suffers unsaved wounds, place a token within 2" of that unit. If the unit is wiped out, leave the token within 2" of the final unit member to fall, unless the unit suffers a sweeping advance, in which case you place the token within 2" of the model closest to your board edge.

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:

There goes that annoying "yeah" thing. Even with commas that's not proper grammar, but that's just a hang up of mine.
Yeah I have the book with me right now. They can be used in any 2000+ point standard game. In exact wording "your points in the lords of war slot cannot be more than 1/4 of your total army"
If they were Apoc only they'd be a lot tougher.
Come on man, read the first post. I already said multiple times I'm getting feedback on the powers first.
.

In addition to not being an argumentative jerk, Maybe you can better format your first post if you want more constructive criticism (which people ARE trying to give despite the fact that you're being pretty passive aggressive).

In regards to Divine intervention: are ICs embedded within said destroyed units going to be revivable? Or simply the unit?

Maybe you want to flip over to Mortarion or Horus because for less than half your guys points they blow him away.

Add Adamantium Will so that his special rules are in line with the normal primarchs

Your Divine Control's wording is horrible. Right now it can easily be interpreted that magnus only gets to reroll if its a single d6 (as in can't reroll if theres more than one d6 being rolled).

Consider using the rules for Gargantuan Creature if he's going to be Apoc only yeah?

Also in regards to you saying "getting feedback on the powers first"; the OP says "feedback on this and then we'll continue". Do you mean continue as in continuing to be intolerant of any questions?

 motyak wrote:
I'm going to go through this and edit some of your rules so that they are more useable on the field without you actually being present to let players know your intentions. Let me know if I've misinterpreted them. I'm not changing balance/anything, just translating them for more general use.

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:

Magnus the Red, Daemon Primarch of Tzeentch
[WS][BS][S][T][W][.I.][A][LD] SV
[..7..][.6.][.6][7][.8.][6.][6][.10] 2+/3+
Unit Type: MC
Unit Compostion: 1 Magnus the Red
Special Rules: Unique Psychic Powers, EW, IWND 5+, Fleet, Fearless, Terror, Psychic Mastery 7
Wargear: Scarab Armor, Staff of Magnus, Book of Magnus

Scarab Armor: X
Staff of Magnus: X
Book of Magnus: X

**POWERS**
-Blood of Golgotha: Type: Witchfire: Cost: Warp Charge 3; Range: 36" S:8 AP:4 Assault 6D6 I put assault here but you may have intended Heavy/something else. This is how PSAs should be put though, because uniformity is important
-Meteora: Type: Witchfire Cost: Warp Charge 5; Range: 40" S: D AP: 1 Heavy 1, 10" Blast
-Prescience: Type: Blessing Cost: Warp Charge 1; One friendly unit within 30" and LOS of Magnus may reroll all failed saves and FNP rolls I added in FNP here because I think that is what you meant, since it isn't a save and so requires the additional mention
-Divine Control: Type: Blessing Cost:Warp Charge 1; The player controlling Magnus can reroll any single die roll over the next game turn, including opponents dice. This can be a single die from a test involving 2D6 (e.g. Leadership checks). You didn't answer if this stacked, so I assumed that it didn't. If it does, you need to mention that as well
-Armor of Thorns: Type: Blessing Cost: Warp Charge 2; When Magnus suffers an unsaved wound in CC, and fails his FNP, the unit which caused the wound(s) suffers D3 S:6 AP:4 hits per wound. For example, if a Space Marine Captain wounded Magnus twice, he would suffer 2D3 S:6 AP:4 hits. You probably shouldn't make players roll dice that aren't used anywhere else in the entire system of 40K. I changed it to D3, but you can change it to D6 if you'd prefer it
-Divine Intervention: Type: Blessing Cost: Warp Charge 3; Magnus can use this power on any "My Will Be Done" marker within his LOS. D6 1 wound models from the unit the marker represents are placed on the marker in deepstrike formation, following deepstrike rules. If the unit would suffer a mishap, move the marker towards Magnus' current position until the unit will no longer suffer a mishap. I made this a blessing because I wasn't sure what else it would be

I'm adding this section because you need it for some of the things you used to have in the powers section above
**SPECIAL RULES**
Nearly Unlimited Power: Magnus can only use one Psychic Shooting Attack per turn, regardless of his Warp Charge You may have meant that he could cast Blood of Golgotha twice, and is so just change this to "must choose at the start of the shooting phase which Psychic Shooting Attack he will use for this phase. He can use this as long as he has the available Warp Charge" or something like that
My Will Be Done: When an Infantry unit with the Mark of Tzeentch without the IC special rule suffers unsaved wounds, place a token within 2" of that unit. If the unit is wiped out, leave the token within 2" of the final unit member to fall, unless the unit suffers a sweeping advance, in which case you place the token within 2" of the model closest to your board edge.

Love it. I'll make the changes after breakfast.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ironwill13791 wrote:
I like the statlines (they feel like the next step up from primarch). I am digging how you balanced the powers around the ML7. So that if you cast meteora for 5, then you are somewhat limited on what you can cast. I will also say that dropping Magnus from being a flying gargantuan creature to a regular MC was pretty cool. Although he probably could be gargantuan since you removed those silly primarch abilities which looked like they were thrown on there to cover for any weaknesses. Looking forward to seeing wargear, so we can talk turkey on the cost.

Of course, keeping him a regular MC would also make for tougher decisions in-game for your warp charge. Especially if he has a force staff. Decisions like "Do I use a WC to inflict ID, or smash?". That is if you go that route. Gargantuan are S: D in close combat; so you could do that and make the staff a defense against perils results (of course, I believe that would probably increase the cost of the model).

Thanks. The model I'm using is bout the size of a hierophant so I'll see about making it a GC

We have another portion of this done.
Want some feedback on this.

So yea his wargear doesnt seem op or anything. He still seems too overcosted next to the forgeworld primarchs. For example you could almost get 3 mortarions for the cost of him and each one of them have better stats and slayer potential without his legion wide buffs and unlimited phosphex. Horus could laugh at him for 500 pts and he has the most truly OP primarch rules.

While psychic powers are nice, he still doesn't do anything for your army other than being a fire magnet . At this point bolters can hurt him on a 6 and for 1200 pts thats a bit too sh****, even with 8 wounds. Fulgrim is only 380pts and still does more for the army than your magnus at 1200 (+2 to combat res all across the board and choice of warlord traits).

 Skimask Mohawk wrote:
So yea his wargear doesnt seem op or anything. He still seems too overcosted next to the forgeworld primarchs. For example you could almost get 3 mortarions for the cost of him and each one of them have better stats and slayer potential without his legion wide buffs and unlimited phosphex. Horus could laugh at him for 500 pts and he has the most truly OP primarch rules.

While psychic powers are nice, he still doesn't do anything for your army other than being a fire magnet . At this point bolters can hurt him on a 6 and for 1200 pts thats a bit too sh****, even with 8 wounds. Fulgrim is only 380pts and still does more for the army than your magnus at 1200 (+2 to combat res all across the board and choice of warlord traits).

He's going to have more leadership rules obviously. Keep in mind the turn he activates the Staff of Magnus he has Warlord Titan firepower.
He would mop the floor with Horus in a firefight.

Can his powers be denied through deny the witch? It would be funny is Magnus pulled a comet out the sky and some ballzy guardsmen simply said 'not gonna happen'. Would having several rune priests drop pod round him make him terrible? Would shadow in the warp make him fail half the time? Is Lady Malys still immune? Wouldn't 4 GK storm ravens shooting 2 mind strike missiles each kill him? Will a roll of 11 on the warp storm table turn him into a daemonic herald? He seems really, really weak to certain things. Resilient as gak to everything else, but against anti psyker stuff it looks he just became a slower An'grath.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Can his powers be denied through deny the witch? It would be funny is Magnus pulled a comet out the sky and some ballzy guardsmen simply said 'not gonna happen'. Would having several rune priests drop pod round him make him terrible? Would shadow in the warp make him fail half the time? Is Lady Malys still immune? Wouldn't 4 GK storm ravens shooting 2 mind strike missiles each kill him? Will a roll of 11 on the warp storm table turn him into a daemonic herald? He seems really, really weak to certain things. Resilient as gak to everything else, but against anti psyker stuff it looks he just became a slower An'grath.

These are all very valid points. He becomes laughable when surrounded by Anti Psyker stuff.

Horus blocks psychic powers on a 3+ and mortarion on a 4+


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wait Magnus gets to steal the initiative on a 4+, the same as the Warmaster, simply because he's "one of the better strategists amongst his brothers" .

Making TS WS/BS 5 isn't very thematic tbh and doesn't do much for the army (tho its hard to buff 4++, fearless, ap 3 marines in any other way). Maybe removes SNP?