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Hello.

I decided to come playing warmachine after loosing my last infinity player in my city.

I have read lot of post (the one from derevan was quite instructive) and come here to seek final advices.

I want to play Horde since i dont like the robots heavy factions and hesitate between Skorne and Circle of Orboros.

If i understand correctly :

Skorne is a faction that is good at rusching to contact as soon as possible to wreck faces but has big difficulties against non scenario match where to opponent can hit and run. Is it right?

Orboros is a faction with a harder learning curve who concentrate on hit and run with some nice damage output capacity. is it also right?

Comparing the factions model i find that orboros has better stats have i lost something?

I know thats a lot of question but i dont have enough money to go on two factions and i really want to create an impressive force (so only one faction possible). What i love most is versatility and being able to do everything with having one strong point. I also like mobile faction but i dont know if thats very important in warmachine's game. Can you please complete my knoledge to help me choose my faction.

With hope you will be able to help me.

Thanks

Desthat

P.S. sorry for bad english

desthat wrote:
Hello.

I decided to come playing warmachine after loosing my last infinity player in my city.

I have read lot of post (the one from derevan was quite instructive) and come here to seek final advices.

I want to play Horde since i dont like the robots heavy factions and hesitate between Skorne and Circle of Orboros.

welcome to the iron kingdoms desthat! here, have your complimentary goggles and cyclops plushie

Hordes is a lot of fun. circle and skorne are both great armies.

desthat wrote:


If i understand correctly :

Skorne is a faction that is good at rusching to contact as soon as possible to wreck faces but has big difficulties against non scenario match where to opponent can hit and run. Is it right?

Orboros is a faction with a harder learning curve who concentrate on hit and run with some nice damage output capacity. is it also right?

Comparing the factions model i find that orboros has better stats have i lost something?

I know thats a lot of question but i dont have enough money to go on two factions and i really want to create an impressive force (so only one faction possible). What i love most is versatility and being able to do everything with having one strong point. I also like mobile faction but i dont know if thats very important in warmachine's game. Can you please complete my knoledge to help me choose my faction.

(1) rushing to contact as soon as possible - that generally sounds like Circle, to be fair. they're generally regarded as the alphastriking faction, especially with the kaya's and kromac in their roster. Skorne are an attrition/beatstick army that have a lot of movement buffs that help push them across the board. they hit hard, they can take a hit, and they have lots of tricks up their sleaves.

I dont think its fair to say they have trouble in non scenario matches. to be fair - you should be playing scenarios. the game is balanced around the twin win conditions of scenario, and assassination. For what its worth, skorne do fine at both.

(2) sounds correct. although the learning curve bit - not so much. i've heard it a lot, but being honest, i found kromac very easy to get to grips with (and he has excellent depth as a caster to boot, so he's not a beginner caster!). i dont think theyre any harder than other factions. also, whilst circle have a lot of great hit and run potential, its not all they do. they have hard attrition builds as well as a lot of other plays to make.

(3) its not just straight stats. you need to look at the support pieces. those skorne beast handlers make their beasts the most evil and destructive things around!

(4) mobility is very important, as is speed. being able to move gives you options.

hope that helps!

Thanks for your ansewr.

I dont really understand the meaning of attrition sorry coul you explain me?

So if i am seeking a versatile faction capable of playing in the most possible playground you would recommand skorne? (the idea of hitting hard and being mobile appeal me a lot)

In my club i have lots of person and all faction are represented (they love to take the strongest possible list for their faction). I dont seek to easy win everything but to have a chance against everything if its possible.

Attrition armies are armies based around the idea of killing off all of your opponents models instead of going for scenario points or an assassination.

Attrition is all about interacting with your opponents army in a meaningful and disruptive way. Attrition is maintaining your fighting strength while depleting his.

I personally think Trolls have the best attrition game in Hordes but Skorne probably second best.

The philosophy behind Attrition:
Kill the enemy army to take away his options. Without an army, he can't protect his caster, he can't support (or even execute) his own assassination run, and he can't hold/contest zones. In my experience, the Protectorate and Khador encourage this playstyle. Good attrition game always has two sides. Half of it is killing enemy model, the other half of it is protecting your own. In order to win by attrition, you need to create piece advantage. In its purest form, a game of attrition ends with your remaining army surrounding a lone enemy caster while some of your models control the scenario objectives. Which illustrates an essential aspect of the attrition playstyle: You can't win games through attrition alone. You can use attrition to set up an easy assassination or scenario victory, but piece advantage alone means nothing.

The good thing about Warmahordes is that there are no "best lists" and pretty much every faction has a broad diversity. Your gameplan and the way you´ll play can change absolutely simply by swapping your warcaster/warlock. And there is no bad faction either so you can really play the dudes you like the look of most as long as you don´t want to play Warjack-heavy with Khador. We don´t really run them en masse..

Thanks for the ansewr.

Skorne have nice speed with buff you say but so it is very dependant of the position of the warlock and he can boost only one or two beats and then be out of fury for spell and buff (i heard they are buff dependant) ?

How is circle in the view of mobility and versatility?

Circle has their fair share of buffs as well

and boosting only one or two things per turn is pretty par of the course in the game as a whole

Also Skorne has a few of options for hitting and running as well, especially Molik Karn and Archidon

I am not sure where the idea of skorne not being able to boost several beasts well came from. Skorne is some of the easiest and simplest fury mitigation in the game in the form of beast handlers. Also, it sounds like you have focus and fury mixed up. With fury, your warlock does not allocate resources to your beasts for them to use as fuel for boosting, that is how warmachine/focus work. Beasts can boost up to their fury stat, then, at the start of your next turn, your warlock pulls the fury off the beasts to fuel their spells. A beast handler can strip any remaining fury that your warlock cannot absorb. Both factions are fast - skorne has access to lots of movement buffs to speed up those slow heavy beasts and infantry. Also - comparing just straight stats, orboros has terrible stats. Their beasts are expensive and have weak MAT, low hit boxes, low POW, and low ARM. their speed is good - generally above other heavies, and their DEF is great for a heavy, but compared to the raw stat lines of skorne - circle appears pretty awful. Their strength comes in their ability to land the alpha strike better and retreat their critical models to safety - that way, their poor ARM and hitboxes dont matter as much.

Keep in mind, there is no strongest list - certain lists and warcasters/warlocks are better at some things (pitched battles compared to scenario battles) and are better at countering certain other lists. In this way, you will or should encounter more veriety than you would normally see in warhammer.

desthat wrote:Thanks for your ansewr.

I dont really understand the meaning of attrition sorry coul you explain me?

So if i am seeking a versatile faction capable of playing in the most possible playground you would recommand skorne? (the idea of hitting hard and being mobile appeal me a lot)

In my club i have lots of person and all faction are represented (they love to take the strongest possible list for their faction). I dont seek to easy win everything but to have a chance against everything if its possible.

No worries. To answer your questions regarding attrition (although 22cthulu did a great answer), attrition boils down to being able to hit hard enough to kill all his things, whilst being hard enough to stop his stuff killing yours in turn. Khador, are the archetypal attriton faction, but dont have sole rights to it.

if youre seeking a versatile faction with a large playbook, id recommend skorne, and circle. And most other factions. the thing is no faction only does one thing. all factions have a wide playbook. for example, i play circle, and i know i can do ranged, melee, magic, anti-magic, attriton, alphastriking, control/denial, manipulation, shenanigans (ie teleporting!) beast heavy, infantry heavy etc. Circle have a 'complete' playbook in that there really is no one thing they can't do.

regarding hitting hard and being mobile - thats circle down to a t. you get a lot of talk about them being 'pillow fisted', but its simply not true. a feral warpwolf, stalker or even ghetorix buffed with forced evolution from kaya or wild aggression from kromac, and bestial from a gorax is easily one of the most disgustingly brutal things in the game.

desthat wrote:Thanks for the ansewr.

Skorne have nice speed with buff you say but so it is very dependant of the position of the warlock and he can boost only one or two beats and then be out of fury for spell and buff (i heard they are buff dependant) ?

How is circle in the view of mobility and versatility?

Are you mixing up fury and focus? beasts force themselves - its one of the great things about fury. you need to be within the control area of the caster, but youdont spend his fury to push your beasts. Beyond that, its not just the warlock that is boosting. beasts can cast their animi also, and dont forget the support pieces that can push beasts still further.

Regarding circle and mobility/versatility - theyre fast, and theye mobile. unlike most factions, circle heavies are spd6 putting them up there at the top. there are various ways of pushing their threat range up still further with feats and spells, and very useful abilities for repositioning, and for non-linear assassination runs (Kromac's warpath, for example). Coupled with the stalkers lightning strike animus, it means circle cna charge in, kill stuff, and then pull back, and repeat it all next turn. Add to this their various teleporting shenanigans, and you will realise there is no place on the board a circle army cannot reach. theyre an army laden with a lot of trickery and shenanigans.

Thanks for the information.

There is just on last thing to make up my mind

I have just read lots of post on the official forum and just read that skorne struggle hard against certain faction like cryx or legion (they can do something against them but will really be a problem). I know there will always be cryers on the forum but i see a lot more problem for the skorne players (they seem to be a niche and have a strong presence in a particular category but real weakness in other).

I fear that thos two factions represent more than 20% of the faction played nowaday and 40% of my club :(.

I have read on this post : http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/541475.page that circle is a real complete faction that can just do everything in the game and stay competitive. Is skorne in the same case (cause this is really what i seek)? I ask cause i like the "resistant" par of skorne that can affor to take hits but the most important for me is versatility. (i love both skins and their ability to alpha strike something)


Edit : WOW Deadnight thanks for this superb ansewr. It really ansewr most of my questions. Just one question for you is there something circle really struggle at? IF i go with circle, what would you recommand to begin with ?

Everyone struggles against Cryx and Legion. They are the 2 most cheating factions in the game. In a sense knowing that about 40% of your games will be against them is an advantage in that you can tailor your army to deal with them and still hold your own against anyone else. I play against Skorne a lot and it doesn't have any glaring weaknesses that I've ever found. As was said above all factions can play well against each other it is simply a matter of the player and what models he chooses.

desthat wrote:
Thanks for the information.

There is just on last thing to make up my mind

I have just read lots of post on the official forum and just read that skorne struggle hard against certain faction like cryx or legion (they can do something against them but will really be a problem). I know there will always be cryers on the forum but i see a lot more problem for the skorne players (they seem to be a niche and have a strong presence in a particular category but real weakness in other).

I fear that thos two factions represent more than 20% of the faction played nowaday and 40% of my club :(.

With respect, dont listen to the PP forums. Don't get me wrong - they're quite decent, but they do suffer from a large amount of "group think" that i regard as unwarranted, as i've seen plenty things dismissed out of hand by the forums do rather well in real life. A lot of whats said there can be taken with a pinch of salt, so dont take whats said as gospel.
You'll also find the forums have a certain penchant for whining. I've seen the khador, cygnar, troll, skorne, circle, merc, minion and retribution forums swamped by it with frequent rants as to x being OP (cryx especially), or underpowered, when on the ground, its nothing like any of that. So again, dont put too much stock into the whining.
A lot of players i know dont bother with the forums, and for good reason.

desthat wrote:

I have read on this post : http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/541475.page that circle is a real complete faction that can just do everything in the game and stay competitive. Is skorne in the same case (cause this is really what i seek)? I ask cause i like the "resistant" par of skorne that can affor to take hits but the most important for me is versatility. (i love both skins and their ability to alpha strike something)

Pretty much. Im not all that familiar with playing as skorne (i play against them!) and i've never seen them as slouches when it comes to playing the game. they can shred armour, decimate infantry, alphastrike, and attrition, deny/control, and manipulate. if you want to play Skorne, go for it. Dont be full of fear.

desthat wrote:

Edit : WOW Deadnight thanks for this superb ansewr. It really ansewr most of my questions. Just one question for you is there something circle really struggle at? IF i go with circle, what would you recommand to begin with ?

Its hard for circle to play 'ranged heavy'. they have woldstalkers, nyss mercenaries, bloodtrackers and reeves, and whilst its up to par, they cannot play the ranged game cygnar or retribution can bring to the table. also, they're not natively 'hard', so while they have some builds that can play an excellent attrition game, dont expect everything to automatically be able to take a charge from a bronzeback and survive.

Skorne aren't specifically weak to Cryx or Legion

The problem is those factions are a little OP


Its kinda of like... Everyone has trouble with those factions
The difference is, while those factions are extremely strong, they have a lot of glaring weaknesses to exploit.

Long story short they are borderline noob factions, meaning people who are new to the game will be more likely to win with them. But Veterans don't find them generally OP

Thanks for the explications.

I dont fancy skorne more than circle and thats the problem i have to choose one of them since i cant afford to make 2 factions.

You did make my fear disapear and thanks a lot to you for that

Taking note of what i search the most and love the most is there one of the two faction that should correspond more to my gameplay?

Just to remember what i love in a wargame:
* versatility (being able to play on all playground if possible effectivly)
* nice alpha strike capacity
* mobility (i hate when i have to run after someone that's 10 time more mobile than me and loosing all i have to get him or not) (and i really love to have a large threat capacity with all the strategy option that give (i would love to have a faction that's not to straitforward but can be tricky and put up some nice strategy (love to brainwork my armies at home ^^ )))
* dont die after a blow of wind (dont seek super tanks just things that can take 1 hit)

edit : I really dont seek the most powerfull or easywin faction. I seek somthing that match my style and can hold himself on battleground against everyone (with different list of course or it would really be OP i think)


Hope you wil be able to help me or if they are really all very good for me ill play it with dice since its a dice game

The problem is that Skorne fulfils some of your choices, while Circle fulfils others.

For example: Circle is probably the most mobile faction and excels at hit and run tactics, but most of their beasts and troops are fragile and can't take a hit.
Skorne have highly durable warbeasts that excel at dealing damage. But their mobility beyond the alpha strike is rather limited...

None of those factions are especially adept at shooting, but both can play in all the other styles (attrition, assassination, scenario).

You have to prioritize which of those characteristics you value more in your play style.

Dont circle have some warbeasts with nice resistance that can take the blow while the other moove around? Then it is not a problem if the other are quite squishy.

desthat wrote:
Dont circle have some warbeasts with nice resistance that can take the blow while the other moove around? Then it is not a problem if the other are quite squishy.

Yes. The various constructs that they can field are quite durable, though slower than the typical fare.

Thanks for all your help guys.

I will play Circle of Orboros. I think its this faction that goes the best with my playstyle since high mobility can be better than defence and the construct can take hits so its perfect i think.

What should i start with with circle of orboros?

Is there some advices you can give me to start with this faction?

desthat wrote:Thanks for the explications.

I dont fancy skorne more than circle and thats the problem i have to choose one of them since i cant afford to make 2 factions.

You did make my fear disapear and thanks a lot to you for that

Taking note of what i search the most and love the most is there one of the two faction that should correspond more to my gameplay?

Just to remember what i love in a wargame:
* versatility (being able to play on all playground if possible effectivly)
* nice alpha strike capacity
* mobility (i hate when i have to run after someone that's 10 time more mobile than me and loosing all i have to get him or not) (and i really love to have a large threat capacity with all the strategy option that give (i would love to have a faction that's not to straitforward but can be tricky and put up some nice strategy (love to brainwork my armies at home ^^ )))
* dont die after a blow of wind (dont seek super tanks just things that can take 1 hit)

edit : I really dont seek the most powerfull or easywin faction. I seek somthing that match my style and can hold himself on battleground against everyone (with different list of course or it would really be OP i think)


Hope you wil be able to help me or if they are really all very good for me ill play it with dice since its a dice game

first up, there is no 'most powerful or easy win faction'. straight up - thats a myth. you will win a game, or lose one based on your own merit as a player, and not because you play X faction. this is not 40k.

regarding your list, i think circle fits the bill.

*versatile. like i said, they're a complete faction with a ranged threat, melee threat, mobility shenanigans, magic/anti magic, a fair bit of attrition, a lot of alphastrike, and a fair bt of control/denial/manipulation. there is no playstyle closed off to them.
* alphastriking: talk to Kromac, or the Kayas. the standard for 'alphastriking'.
*mobility: high base epeed on most beasts, coupled with a lot of movement shenanigans, trickery, threat range extension etc.
*dont die after a blow of wind... well, you have to be there to be hit by something in the first place, and circle excel at not being there. why need to be able to take a hit when you can simply not be there in the first place? thats circle )

desthat wrote:Thanks for all your help guys.

I will play Circle of Orboros. I think its this faction that goes the best with my playstyle since high mobility can be better than defence and the construct can take hits so its perfect i think.

What should i start with with circle of orboros?

Is there some advices you can give me to start with this faction?

best advice for starters is to pick up the starter box, and play a lot of games. build up slowly, if you can up to 25, and then 35points. if there is a journeyman league taking place in your area, try and join in. Personally, i would avoid the route of telling you 'here's a list, play this', and would rather you discovered your own style, and your own army. sufficeth to say, you cant go far wrong with kaya, baldur, and especially kromac, and a warpwolf stalker or two, with a gorax in tow!

desthat wrote:
Dont circle have some warbeasts with nice resistance that can take the blow while the other moove around? Then it is not a problem if the other are quite squishy.

There's something important to note here- generally speaking, in Warmachine, models tend to die pretty quickly. If you put a fair amount of pressure on a single model, it's likely to go away in a single turn, no matter what it is. 'Resilience' should often be measured more in 'how many resources will it take to get rid of this,' as opposed to 'will my opponent be able to get rid of this.'

Against many 'high-offence' models, distance is the only real protection.

Glad you took Circle, I´m getting into them right now too!
To be honest I don´t like the Battle Box because the warcaster is a niche-character and pretty hard to understand for a starter and 2x argus is a combo you probably will never use outside of the box battles... But the Feral is alright. If you can share the 2 player starter you get a better start but still I´d go with the standard: a caster you like the look of (most are good and competetive), 2x stones + ua, 1 or of our Warpwolves and a unit you like. this is a standard list that works pretty much all the time.

Circle Casters essential come in two flavors, do you want living beasts or stone constructs? Baldur works great on constructs (can heal them) but no advantage to living beasts.

pKaya gives living beasts +2 to attack. no bonuses for constructs.

Remember their gargantuan is a construct...

IMO, after playing some games using circle, I would not bother with their box set. You get kaya, 2 argus, and the feral. The feral is nice, kaya is fine, the argus though, I do not understand why they do that. One argus is useful to grant pathfinder and to get in the way or kill small infantry models. I have never been able to buy it's points back though. You could buy (and I would recommend this) the plastic warpwolf kit and magnetize it. That will give you a feral, stalker, or pureblood. The stalker and feral are really really good in many lists and if you magnetize them, then you can switch between them depending on what you need at the time. A single argus would be good to have and they are extremely cheap - around 10$ shipped. I would then look at Kromac the ravenous for your starter warlock. I think he has the best selection of support buffs and debuffs for your opponents - he has movement buff, offense, and defense as well as spell negation. He can also shapeshift into a lethal, long range assassin who can wipe out just about any warcaster/warlock with his feat (his feat gives you fury to buy more attacks with). I learned to play with Kromac, and after trying several other circle warlocks (kaya, baldur, morvahna) I still fall back to him because he is the most complete package.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yeah, if you get the plastic kit, then you can later pickup circle's character warpwolf ghetorix and magnetize that as well.

Here come the noob question

Can someone explain me what you mean by magnetize? and how can i do that

tommse wrote:Glad you took Circle, I´m getting into them right now too!
To be honest I don´t like the Battle Box because the warcaster is a niche-character and pretty hard to understand for a starter and 2x argus is a combo you probably will never use outside of the box battles... But the Feral is alright. If you can share the 2 player starter you get a better start but still I´d go with the standard: a caster you like the look of (most are good and competetive), 2x stones + ua, 1 or of our Warpwolves and a unit you like. this is a standard list that works pretty much all the time.

hmm.dont dismiss it just because its not used a lot outside of the battlebox a lot. the battlebox should be seen as a tool to help you learn the game. its a 'complete package' in its own right, and i view it as being partially separate from the warmahordes as played by more experienced players.

two other points: i played circle for ages without stones - yes they're great but they're not necessary either. and regarding the feral, he is more than 'alright'. Higher MAT than a stalker, cheaper, and more attacks - if you need a beatstick for a throwdown, the feral is your man. Fair enough he has no animus worth speaking about, but i'd argue in its place, he has the best, and most versatile set of warps available to any of our warpwolves. I always find him to be underrated for the community.

desthat wrote:Here come the noob question

Can someone explain me what you mean by magnetize? and how can i do that

magnets

the thing is with warmachine, and hordes, jacks and beasts might share a common chassis/frame, but have different weapons. in the case of the warpwolf, they all use the same legs and torso, but different arms, weapons and heads. Its the same with khadors juggernaut/marauder/destroyer and many other frames, for example. if you use glue, you can make one. and have it set in stone forever. if you use magnets, you can swap out the arms/heads and have him being a feral in one game, and a stalker in the next. its more for versatility's sake than anything else.

using them is easy. there are plenty tutorials on the net.

I agree on the battlebox of but if you can find someone to split the two person starter with, that is a decent value for the skinwalkers and warpwolf alone.

As noted, finding someone to split the two-player box is a great deal. Even if you can't, the Skinwalkers, alternate Argus and rulebook make up for the difference. The book is practically free when you tally the contents. Getting someone to take up the Legion box, even for an uneven cost if you want to keep the book, still nets you ahead. And the starter box with the Winter Argus is much more robust than the stand-alone one I think.

As for which warlocks use which warbeasts, many actually mix things up. While the Kayas and Kromac support living better, while the Baldurs have rules for Constructs, I have still ran some form of the "other" beast for them in some fashion save maybe Epic Kaya. Other warlocks tend to have at least a token Construct unless I feel they can get by on just killing power and that's a list building choice for a lot of folks.

It should be note dthat the Constructs aren't actually that durable unless they have a good buff, like the Wold Guardian can get ahold of. They kind of more a "give an inch, take a mile" thing with that, and it impacts who they will often run with.

And stuff.

There is a magnetizing thread in the general discussion forum, take a look at it. Basically the kits have a single central chassis and then have weapons, heads, arms etc to make one of three beasts. However, by drilling and inserting magnets into the torso and the heads, arms, weapons etc, you can swap out which beast you are running. I forgot that they released different box sets, I was thinking about the older set which is pKaya, 2 regular Argus, and a feral warpwolf.

Hello again.

I come here with some questions (dont know where to put them so i put them here

When i have a unit of druids of orboros how does the magic ability work? (1 spell for all the unit, 1 spell per model, ...) I search and didnt find the ansewr. (same problem for all units with magic abilities)

desthat wrote:
Hello again.

I come here with some questions (dont know where to put them so i put them here

When i have a unit of druids of orboros how does the magic ability work? (1 spell for all the unit, 1 spell per model, ...) I search and didnt find the ansewr. (same problem for all units with magic abilities)

In Warmahordes all the models activate individually, so every model in the unit will cast one spell of his choosing.