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So I recently got the HH book Betray from Forge World and I've been reading the stats/rules for the Primarchs and although they have a special slot in the Force Org (Lord of War) I reckon there's scope for atleast one of them as a regular HQ choice enter Angron.

Yes, he's nails but not unbeatable in the current meta and yes he's very pointy.

As justification I'm going to compare him to Mephiston from the BA codex as they have very similar stats which I won't post for either but will stat if Angron is +/- against Mepth.

WS +2
This is the biggest advantage over Mepth but it doesn't really matter as when it comes to hit in H2H the best you can ever get is 3+ even if your ws10 vs ws1.

Bs - same. Worth noting that both have a plasma pistol but Angrons is master crafted so Angron can atleast reroll his gets hot's.

S +1. Angron also gets a +1 from his weapons so a total of +2. Another pretty significant upgrade but mrph has a psychic power that makes him S10. Not as reliable but since he's Ld10 it's a pretty safe bet he'll get it.

T - same. One of my bigger concerns for Angron, T6 is nothing to sneeze at the number of mid-high S weaponry we're seeing does not bode well for Angy especially considering his saves (more on that later).

W - same. Can't deny he's ine tough mother.

I - same. He's quick too. Just like Meph.

A +2. Angron also has a special rule to gain more attacks if he kills units up to a max of 10. Mepth can't conpete on attacks. This is cool and fluffy, easy to see why he's pointy.

Ld - same.

Sv. -1. Easily the biggest problem with Angron is his lack of a 2+. He's got a 4++ to fall back on but between the fact that he can be wounded by small arms fire and is shoddy saves it won't take lobg to start peeling those wounds away. It's worth noting here that Meph doesn't have an invul but he is 150 points cheaper so...

For completeness let's go overthe special rules and other misc elements see how they stack up.

Angron has the ability to fight multiple challenges at once, situationally useful but not a gamebreaker.

Angron has FC (so can be +3 S better than Meph if he gets the charge) as before it's cool hut Meph can get S10 , you could even argue passing a sychic test is easier than getting the charge in some cases...

Angron has FNP on a 6+ whilst cool it doesn't extend his survivability by much ignoring 1 in 6 wounds taken. Meph doesn't have direct access to FNP but any BA player worth their salt will have a few priests, if on is nearby then mepth gets the 5+ fnp increasing his durability by a third. Okay yes it's extremely situational that Meph will get it as since Meph is not an IC a priest couldn't join him so would just have to be lurking nearby.

Speaking of being an IC it's often noted that since Meph doesn't have it he can't join a unit and hid him away. Angron is an IC but I've been wondering how useful it actually is due to the majority toughness rules essentially dropping him to T4 (assuming he joins marines).

Okay let's talk weapons. Meph first as he's simple Force Sword and we've mentioned his pistol so he's ap3 nut gets +1 A for two cc weapons. Not great but his power giving himS10 does mean he can threaten AV14 sonot bad either. Angron on the other hand kicks like a donkey ap2 axes which give +1 s (already mentioned this bonus I believe) he also has armourbain so better than a close range melta. He also has a specisl rule which gives him the instant death rule on a 6. Angron clearly wins here, again not exactly surprissurprising considering the cost difference.

The only other thing worth mentioning is Angron is slow and can only get in a LR or similar (more points) Meph has a power which gives him a jp and he has fleet. Much quicker.

So let's not get confused with my purpose here, this isn't Meph vs Angron. We''re looking at Angrons viability as a normal force org choice a very expensive one who can seriously hurt pretty much everything he hits but with only 3+/4++ with 6+ fnp is he really that durable. Especially considering for 100 points more than Angron Horus has 2+/3++ (I don't think Horus could ever be a 'normal choice') and for double the points of Angron you can have a Screamerstar with potentially a rerollable 2++.

I'd fight a 40k battle against an army with Angron as the HQ choice at the helm.

D

(Sorry for spelling or othr errors I'm on my phone, wasn't initially planning an epic post).

I'v made Mephiston by chew toy with my Tyrants.. so hes not that great.

I've never said Meph is great, merely that they have similar stat lines to form a comparison in how Angron could be used in normal 40k, not as a cost efficient choice I hasten to add but potentially as a regular HQ.

Telling me your nids can eat Meth really doesn't bring that much to the discussion, more interesting would be if they can do the same to Angron.

D

Angron is the worst of the current Primarchs in the Horus Heresy, he's too expensive and provides no benefit to your army unlike any of the other Primarchs. Fulgrim is cheaper and better, and in true form Mortarion is probably the best as he's only 25 pts more.

No 2+ save REEALLY feths Angron over. I don't know what they were thinking with that one. Kind of sad that he would lose to Fulgrim and Mortarion in CC.

That being said Angron does have Hatred for rerolls and It Will Not Die.

A biomancey Swarmlord might well do that. As long as he gets Ironarm of warp speed or the likes he has quite a good chance. Every wound is a wound done practically as he forces that 4++ to be re-rolled. He can get Tyrant Guard to make Angron strike last and give him an extra 2 wounds. I know its off topic, but a biomancey Swarmlord can go toe to toe with Gargantuan creatures, he is a beast!

I personally don't think Angron is worth it, having beaten him several times. A friend of mine likes to play legion in normal 40k so when I play against him with my Dark Eldar he tends to go down like a sack of bricks. Massed lances make his LR an easy pop and then its as easy to whittle down the unit to only Angron, then he is simply venom fodder. We tend to play 1850pt games so I understand he is meant to be played in much larger ones, and he is a lot of points to use in such a game. I have killed him 3 times, 2 times I killed off his unit with massed shooting then cut Angron down with poison shots/massed lances. The 3rd time I charged his unit with a Harlestar containing A farseer, Karandras and an Archon. Misfortuned the unit, fortuned my own and prescience (Had special spiritstone) he stood no chance. Karandras sliced him up on the second round of combat.

If he had a 2+ he would be fine, but with only a3+ and 4+ to save him, he simply isn't a good investment when he isn't assured to make it into combat.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
A biomancey Swarmlord might well do that. As long as he gets Ironarm of warp speed or the likes he has quite a good chance. Every wound is a wound done practically as he forces that 4++ to be re-rolled. He can get Tyrant Guard to make Angron strike last and give him an extra 2 wounds. I know its off topic, but a biomancey Swarmlord can go toe to toe with Gargantuan creatures, he is a beast!

I personally don't think Angron is worth it, having beaten him several times. A friend of mine likes to play legion in normal 40k so when I play against him with my Dark Eldar he tends to go down like a sack of bricks. Massed lances make his LR an easy pop and then its as easy to whittle down the unit to only Angron, then he is simply venom fodder. We tend to play 1850pt games so I understand he is meant to be played in much larger ones, and he is a lot of points to use in such a game. I have killed him 3 times, 2 times I killed off his unit with massed shooting then cut Angron down with poison shots/massed lances. The 3rd time I charged his unit with a Harlestar containing A farseer, Karandras and an Archon. Misfortuned the unit, fortuned my own and prescience (Had special spiritstone) he stood no chance. Karandras sliced him up on the second round of combat.

If he had a 2+ he would be fine, but with only a3+ and 4+ to save him, he simply isn't a good investment when he isn't assured to make it into combat.

Pretty much what I suspected and it's interesting to see some people have been using Angron in 40k to poor results. As mentioned the lack of a 2+ really hurts him. I think it adds a nice new dynamic using 30k armies vs 40k but as the Forge World FAQ states they're not designed to be directly integrated.

I'd be interested to hear how Angron stats and rules compare to say a Wraithknight and the potential damage output from each.

D

I wouldn't say that would matter much, because Angron doesn't have the speed to catch up with it so he can kill it. The only time the Wraithknight would get into combat is if he thinks he would win. Whats a better comparison is how does he fair against Tyranid Monstrous creatures such as Tervigons and Trygons, he would have to kill 2/3 to make his points back, do you think he could? Could he kill several Daemon Princes? Blood Thirsters? Avatars?

40k is full of really powerful shooting, really resilient armies and a few amazing CC units. Everything else is ignored. Legion just doesn't have the resilience to handle the kind of shooting Tau can put out, or the CC prowess to handle the only CC units people still use. FMC or Deathstars. I don't play 30k, but everytime my friend plays 40k he has fun, but doesn't win all the time. That being said, he wins more often then he loses, and the only reason he loses to me is DE have the speed to dance out of range and shoot, I saw a game where Angron was the embodiment of murder against Chaos, slaughtering through 2 chaos lords and 2 beserker squads then decimating a Plague marine squad. So IF he gets to combat he will do fine, its the getting there that makes him such a risk.

Angron is not an HQ choice.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Angron is not an HQ choice.

Did you even read my post. I'm fully aware that he's a 'Lord of War' the aim of the thread is to determine whether he's worthy of such a slot and if he could be house ruled as a normal hq becaus he's not too disimilar to Mephiston stats wise and his rules aren't exaxtly game changing.

D

 evildrcheese wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Angron is not an HQ choice.

Did you even read my post. I'm fully aware that he's a 'Lord of War' the aim of the thread is to determine whether he's worthy of such a slot and if he could be house ruled as a normal hq becaus he's not too disimilar to Mephiston stats wise and his rules aren't exaxtly game changing.

D

Then shouldn't this be in proposed rules?

Maybe. Broadly it's a dicussion about Angron an how he'd fair in the 40k system, rather than a proposal for a rule the fact yiu'd have to houserule it is really a sidenote.

If a mod feels it'd be better in proposed rules rather than tactic I'm happy for hem to move it.

D

 evildrcheese wrote:
Maybe. Broadly it's a dicussion about Angron an how he'd fair in the 40k system, rather than a proposal for a rule the fact yiu'd have to houserule it is really a sidenote.

If a mod feels it'd be better in proposed rules rather than tactic I'm happy for hem to move it.

D

Fair enough.
I got all confuzzled by the OP for some reason

My buddy is a WE enthusiast and was disappointed by the HH rendition of Angron as well. We have tooled him up a bit via house rules.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Angron is the worst of the current Primarchs in the Horus Heresy, he's too expensive and provides no benefit to your army unlike any of the other Primarchs. Fulgrim is cheaper and better, and in true form Mortarion is probably the best as he's only 25 pts more.

No 2+ save REEALLY feths Angron over. I don't know what they were thinking with that one. Kind of sad that he would lose to Fulgrim and Mortarion in CC.

That being said Angron does have Hatred for rerolls and It Will Not Die.

he really wouldn't lose to them in CC. He's currently the second best. In a challenge it goes
1. Horus
2. Angron
3. Fulgrim
4. Mortarion


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not cost effective admittedly. I've tested all of the primarchs (using the same model). I only ever used Horus in larger games and he just steamrolls through everything as long as you give him a Cataphracti bodyguard. Mortarion is actuall f*cking quick and is devastating against hordes and Fulgrim is just your basic Primarch, point and shoot in the right place and he'll do fine.
Ultimately none of them are worth it in small games. Centurions and praetors are much more useful, especially moritats

The real problem is that in any game where you can take Angron you can also take D-weapons, and a turbolaser Warhound doesn't care how good your save is.

BaconUprising wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Angron is the worst of the current Primarchs in the Horus Heresy, he's too expensive and provides no benefit to your army unlike any of the other Primarchs. Fulgrim is cheaper and better, and in true form Mortarion is probably the best as he's only 25 pts more.

No 2+ save REEALLY feths Angron over. I don't know what they were thinking with that one. Kind of sad that he would lose to Fulgrim and Mortarion in CC.

That being said Angron does have Hatred for rerolls and It Will Not Die.

he really wouldn't lose to them in CC. He's currently the second best. In a challenge it goes
1. Horus
2. Angron
3. Fulgrim
4. Mortarion


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not cost effective admittedly. I've tested all of the primarchs (using the same model). I only ever used Horus in larger games and he just steamrolls through everything as long as you give him a Cataphracti bodyguard. Mortarion is actuall f*cking quick and is devastating against hordes and Fulgrim is just your basic Primarch, point and shoot in the right place and he'll do fine.
Ultimately none of them are worth it in small games. Centurions and praetors are much more useful, especially moritats

Based on what? On that silly blog's single round robin?

I have also done it and I know others who have. Not sure on the math hammer but I would have thought it would reflect that

Remember that angron is not meant for 40k, its a totally different set of rules and design philosophy than 40k, I imagine that if they were to design primarchs for 40k.they would all be upped in the power scale to account for the larger variety of situations that would kill them

Primarchs are rather like abbadon.

Brutal in CC, fairly hard to kill, but just not killy enough at range to handle 40k armies. Wait for the inevitable CC buff in 7th, then they might work.