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Hey guys

My friend wants to play 40K and the army she picked is Daemons. Problem is daemons aren't beginner friendly, they bog the game down, and are very random thanks to warpstorm tables. But its her money, so I'm asking you guys for some basic tips on playing daemons. Everyone around me says Flying circus or go home. Do you guys think flying circus is viable for a brand new player to 40K?

What would you veteran daemons players tell a brand new 40K player who's first army is daemons?

Thanks

Your right to an extent. Daemons are terribly unforgiving of any mistakes. Forget to use your Grimoire? Say bye-bye to your lovingly crafted HQ or deathstar. Over-extend your troops? See them wiped off the board in a turn. Compound this with the random nature of the Warp-Storm table, and you can go from Just as Planned, to QQ in a matter of minutes. Some of these can be mitigated by careful list building, or the proper warlord traits (i really recommend Kairos Fateweaver as he helps a LOT).

That said, i think Daemons are the most rewarding to play, and for me the most fun. They have been my favorite army since the 5th ed codex. For some people, competitiveness doesn't matter. They want to have fun with the hobby.

 greg0985 wrote:


That said, i think Daemons are the most rewarding to play, and for me the most fun. They have been my favorite army since the 5th ed codex. For some people, competitiveness doesn't matter. They want to have fun with the hobby.

Here is the question is rolling a 2-4 on the warpstorm table *fun* for new players? For some reason I see those results rolled more than than anything.

 Gitsmasher wrote:

 greg0985 wrote:


That said, i think Daemons are the most rewarding to play, and for me the most fun. They have been my favorite army since the 5th ed codex. For some people, competitiveness doesn't matter. They want to have fun with the hobby.

Here is the question is rolling a 2-4 on the warpstorm table *fun* for new players? For some reason I see those results rolled more than than anything.

Heh, no it's not. The problem with the warp storm is the *negative* results (2-4) far outweigh the *positive* ones. For example I rolled a 3 in one game (my first turn) and simultaneously gave up slay the warlord and first blood, not too happy about that, where as your opponent might not have any psykers so the equivalent result is wasted. Similarly 2 vs. 12 losing huge chunks of your army vs. gaining an extra set of troops, hmmm! And of course +/-1 to inv saves, going from a 5++ to 6++ is horrific (had it happen twice in a game) where as going from a 5++ to a 4++ is nice but nowhere near the same power level as having -1 to inv saves.

All that said there are several ways to counter to the randomness, first up fateweaver; re-roll warp-storm + re-roll a single dice ability means if you get a 5/6 on one of the dice and a 1/2 on the other you can re-roll the low dice to get one of the *positive* results. To counter -1 to inv saves, try to make sure everyone can claim a cover save to migate the damage (most things are fast enough and ignore difficult terrain or have MTC so it shouldn't slow you down too much). The final one is to take lots of characters (Alluress' + Irescent Horrors upgrades) so if you do roll a 3, odds are a non-important/expensive character can take the hit rather than losing your 300pt warlord/blood-thirster etc.

These things will all help, but agree about daemons not being a very beginner friendly army (definitely wouldn't recommend them as a first army), taking Chaos Space Marines with Daemons as allies could be a better way to get a handle on the rules/tactics before progressing to a full blown daemon army.

Flying circus is by far the strongest and most competitive daemon build you can currently make, but it is mentally exhausting for the first few games.

The best way to play and learn daemons is keep a notebook or cheat sheet with you as you play. Have on it a table with warpstorm results and basic reminders like vector strike and blessings/maledictions.

For a beginner That wants a very competitive army I would suggest to steer clear of a full circus right away, stick to fatey, a prince or 2, and a large unit of hounds/screamers for 1500 and below. At 2k you will have all of these units anyway so no purchase will truly be wasted.

Of course ignore all of this if your friend wants the army for the models, the only model you need to make daemons for fun and less annoying is fateweaver for the warlord trait.

Thanks guys. I'm gonna show this thread to her. If any dumb questions are asked, its not from me lol.

This might be helpful to a new player


http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/541310.page

I have to say that if you roll a 4 on the Warp Storm table (-1 to all invuln saves), that's pretty much the worst thing you can get. I have found however that even that isn't so bad if you use cover effectively (you should be doing this anyway!). I do play a Nurgle heavy list with Fateweaver for WS support...so a) i rarely get a WS roll under a 8, and b) even if I happen to be real unlucky and get that 4 (it has happened before...), Shrouded saves my ass.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And if your looking for a really fun roll, wait till that same Warp Storm table pops a Rune Priest's head, replacing him with a nice Herald (I suggest Slaanesh), who can wreck some face in the following assault phase (if they survive).

Aside from Grey Knights, Nids and Space Wolves will be the hardest matches she will face, purely due to the anti psycher shenanigans.

Long time 40k player starting daemons here, im personally going with flying circus for a few reasons:

A: I believe it is the most competitive when played properly which I am capable of doing.

B: Ive always wanted to do a flying MC list and now it is viable

C: It is the cheapest competitive build to buy my whole army sofar is coming in at about $500 from an online store with discount where as other such units could easily get upwards of 800-1000 or more depending on the units you take.


Personally in life for me, I like to get thrown into the deep end, I learn faster and get a better understanding of the game or what ever situation it is im in. It can be a waste of time and money to start small if you already know you want something better.

I am not a fan of the flying circus - I know it is strong since Flyers are generally strong but it makes an already random army even more random. All it takes is 1 failed grounding check and a few Armor save misses to lose a 200+ point model.

I think that fast assault heavy lists provide more warp storm resilience, better games and more consistent results. Initially that means Flesh Hounds, Khorne Heralds and maybe Fateweaver (he is sadly just that good). For troops Daemonettes and Horrors are both strong choices. Fill out to taste from there with more hounds, Seekers, Soul Grinders et cetera.

Is she looking to play competititvely? If not just let her go with what God(s) she likes and have some fun, crushing your opponents with cheesy FOTM lists aren't a lot of fun outside of tournaments.

 Stormphoenix wrote:
Is she looking to play competititvely? If not just let her go with what God(s) she likes and have some fun, crushing your opponents with cheesy FOTM lists aren't a lot of fun outside of tournaments.

As above, a properly played and built competitive daemon army is hard and mind draining to use, espically in a tourny!. FMC are up there for compeititve builds but I'd stand by screamer council will beat them hands down.

What is a flying circus? My girlfriend stopped playing in 5th and is now getting back into 40k. I'd love to help her win a bit more than in 5th's mech environment where she got tabled too often to have fun.

For fun, simple games I like Tzeentch/Khorne builds. Fatie for sure, with some Tzheralds and Khorne heralds thrown in. Tzheralds on discs with screamers, horrors or flamers is fun even if you aren't going for a full on Screamer star. Karanak is a great Khorne herald coupled with Khorne puppies, toss in a Khorne herald on a Jugger and the unit gets really fun. I really prefer pink horrors for troops rather than plaguebearers. The PB's are painfully slow and have no shooting ability. While a unit of horrors can camp out of sight, roll one model out to look around and fire at full effect.

Fatie makes the randomness of the warpstorm chart a little less painful. Though I use him to always re-roll "7's", I don't play Chaos Daemons to have NOTHING happen. I love the Portal glyph for extra (free) troop choices. As far as the randomness of the lesser and greater gifts. I'd think it'd help a beginner a great deal to build the list planning on taking the default or "primaris" gift for your heralds. AP2 weapons are great, and dramatically cut down on the paperwork and dice rolls pre game.

Going full flying Circus isn't required for the Army to be fun to play and decently competitive. I say advise your friend to play what she likes for the most part, try to keep the book keeping down by going with as many "sure thing" gifts as she can. Grimoire and Portal Glyph are a big boost to Daemons as well as Fateweaver. And remember that to pick Daemons is to play a fun army that should IMO, embrace the crazy. I for one love rolling a "6" and a "1" on the warpstorm chart and purposefully re-rolling that "1" with Fateweavers ability just to see what kind of mischief he can bring to the table.

It's not like any other army can kill your model with a stick, then turn it into a grotesque, insane, gibbering, daemon spawn!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Murenius wrote:
What is a flying circus? My girlfriend stopped playing in 5th and is now getting back into 40k. I'd love to help her win a bit more than in 5th's mech environment where she got tabled too often to have fun.

A daemon flying circus is where the army is built around taking two Flying Monstrous Creatures (FMC's) as HQ's that then unlock three more FMC's as heavy support choices. The army is built around having 4-5 300ish point flying models that are real brutes flying around destroying things. My personal favorite is Fateweaver, a Keeper of Secrets, and 3 Daemon Princes of Slaanesh with whips, one of the few things in the list that actually gets shooting rather than a psychic shooting attack. Some prefer Fateweaver, a Great Unclean One and 3 Daemon Princes of Nurgle. YMMV.

 Murenius wrote:
What is a flying circus?

The 'Flying Circus' means taking a full battery of Monstrous Creatures and basically playing a team of supervillains against the opposing army. Each one will quite happily reach 300+pts and so it is also one of the cheapest armies to assemble. It generally works by combining multiple psychic powers with Vector Strikes to eliminate a unit per turn, coupled with some devastating multi-assaults and short-range firepower.
Each Greater Daemon unlocks their respective Princes as a Heavy support and so a typical build will use 5 monsters, pulled from 2 Gods, along with the required troops in support.

Popular options include:
Lord of Change- M3 Divination, monster beatstick and essentially invulnerable
Fateweaver- Psychic toolbox, army-wide reliability improvements and the closest thing to immortal you'll ever find.
Keeper of Secrets- Not a flier but comes with M3 Telepathy and required for Slaaneshii Prince spam.

Slaanesh Prince- Best anti-air/anti-vehicle in the Codex. Capable of simply staying in flight mode and raining down firepower/Vectors all game.
Nurgle Prince- 3++ Cover saves at will and one of the best monster hunters in the game. Potential for a 2+ Cover save at all times if you're gamey.
Tzeentch Prince- Similar to the Slaaneshii Prince except trade reliability for more random Witchfires and roughly a 2.5+ armour save.


Scoring is rarely an issue because the monsters can produce Troops during the game. If built properly, you can quite happily throw out 3++ or even 2++ Invulnerables where required. You have enough access to Telepathy to lock or Shriek units out of play, and enough Biomancy to get both Enfeeble and Iron Arm. Very few armies are capable of taking out more than 1 FMC in a single turn, especially when Fateweaver is around to keep them flying.

And you can ally in a Heldrake for extra evils.

I'd try and get her to use them as allies to CSM, or at least give the daemons some CSM allies. CSM really hold the line well, so you can just deep strike the crap out of your daemons while your CSM keep an eye on things. Of course, the randomness of Daemons is part of the experience, and no-one says random as much as tzeentch. Nurgle and khorne are alot more consistent and the tournament players, tzeentch is the fun one and I, so by extension everyone, think that slaanesh is a waste of time.

Actually, Daemons can have a few beginner friendly builds out there.

Give her two GUOs, two units of Plague Bearers, and two Nurgle Soul Grinders at 1k and and its a pretty simple and straight forward army. Exceedingly nasty as well! Faced it in a 1k Tournament, watching them roll boxcars the last shooting phase to summon plague bearers on the main objective to contest is pretty fun.

As a whole any army in 40k has a steep learning curve because 40k has a steep learning curve. Let her pick the army she wants and work on building something she will have fun and enjoy collectin, building, painting, and playing. Getting competitive and winning comes later.

Thanks for the explanations. The main point will be that she needs some pretty pricy (in terms of real money) models to get her army in that direction.

thetallestgiraffe wrote:
I'd try and get her to use them as allies to CSM, or at least give the daemons some CSM allies. CSM really hold the line well, so you can just deep strike the crap out of your daemons while your CSM keep an eye on things. Of course, the randomness of Daemons is part of the experience, and no-one says random as much as tzeentch. Nurgle and khorne are alot more consistent and the tournament players, tzeentch is the fun one and I, so by extension everyone, think that slaanesh is a waste of time.

I couldn't disagree more about Slaanesh. Whilst about as durable as wet tissue paper, if played right, they'll survive to get a successful charge where you'll see how absolutely devastating even a unit of simple Daemonettes can be in an assault. Last game I played, I charged a unit of Wolfguard hammernators with 15 Daemonettes. They didn't last long enough to strike back, I think I rolled like 10 rends.

The only Khorne units that are really effective now are Bloodthirsters, Skull Cannons, and Flesh Hounds. Bloodletters are just as durable as Daemonettes, but will usually attract more fire than them, and with the nerd to power weapons, against TEQ they are next to useless.


Edit** I should add that Fateweaver had also cursed the Hammernators above with that Divination power that forces them to reroll successful armor/invuln saves.

Khorne Heralds are also amazing I like the combo of juggernaut, greater etherblade or blade of blood and greater/exalted loci absolutely devastating on the charge.

 CaptainJay wrote:
Khorne Heralds are also amazing I like the combo of juggernaut, greater etherblade or blade of blood and greater/exalted loci absolutely devastating on the charge.

I'd say keep Lesser Magic Weapons for Heralds. 20 points for Rampage and Unwieldy is terrible imo. Keep the Axe of Khorne.

 Wilytank wrote:

 CaptainJay wrote:
Khorne Heralds are also amazing I like the combo of juggernaut, greater etherblade or blade of blood and greater/exalted loci absolutely devastating on the charge.

I'd say keep Lesser Magic Weapons for Heralds. 20 points for Rampage and Unwieldy is terrible imo. Keep the Axe of Khorne.

I might be mixing up my rewards, I thought the lesser reward khorne default was blade of blood (Str:User AP2, 6's to wound inflict ID) and Axe of Khorne was the greater same stats but unwieldy, gives rampage and without the ID'ing on 6's

My ideal combo is Hok, juggernaut, Greater + lesser Reward, greater loci. Would either take both khorne defaults or lesser khorne default + greater etherblade, +1 attack for 2 specialist weapons in either case, and either +1 Str mastercrafted or rampage crazy number of attacks.

 Murenius wrote:
Thanks for the explanations. The main point will be that she needs some pretty pricy (in terms of real money) models to get her army in that direction.

It's sort of been mentioned already, but a Flying Circus is a relatively cheap and compact and powerful build. Fateweaver + 2 Princes and a couple boxes of troops will get you to 1500 points and will cost about $200.