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So I have many models that have large decorative pieces (wings, trophy racks, raised waepons) that make it impossible to place models under or even near ruins/buildings. These pieces of the model don't affect the game in anyway as they don't block los and can't be targeted.

How would YMDC play this?

They do block line of sight, just not to the model they're attached to.

 grendel083 wrote:
They do block line of sight, just not to the model they're attached to.

Why would they block line of sight?

Page and reference please?

Besides if you look at his post you will see he is asking about fitting the models in ruins................

I vote you can sit them on the side and just be clear where they are by a coin or something. Just because you modeled you model with cool stuff does not mean you should be hindered in where you place it or gain an LOS advantage because you added an extra wing or gun.

If it isn't a standard model, then you have to assume it is the same dimensions as a standard model. So the wings, trophy rack, clown nose, etc don't actually exist. If it becomes a constant issue, keep a standard model handy off the table, and swap it in for checking LoS and model placement. Then put your pimped out model back in. Or magnetize the crap out of it so you can pop off the oversized pieces if needed.

One of my Flyrants is magnetized, so I can take his wings off if they get in the way. I do it like WMS - ask if he minds first, then do it.

osirisx69 wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
They do block line of sight, just not to the model they're attached to.

Why would they block line of sight?

Page and reference please?

Page 8
This game uses True Line of Sight.
If it blocks sight, it blocks sight.
Only when targeting the model can you ignore decorative elements, for other models behind it they still block LoS.

 grendel083 wrote:
They do block line of sight, just not to the model they're attached to.

That interpretation opens the door to shenanigans. You could shield models behind massive decorative banners or similar.

Dra'al Nacht wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
They do block line of sight, just not to the model they're attached to.

That interpretation opens the door to shenanigans. You could shield models behind massive decorative banners or similar.

It does, but it's still part of the rules.
If someone places a 12"x12" banner on the table, I'd suggest you don't play them...

 grendel083 wrote:

Dra'al Nacht wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
They do block line of sight, just not to the model they're attached to.

That interpretation opens the door to shenanigans. You could shield models behind massive decorative banners or similar.

It does, but it's still part of the rules.
If someone places a 12"x12" banner on the table, I'd suggest you don't play them...

You are very incorrect. Please quote from page 8 the exact words that state wings and guns block line of sight. Because the page 8 I just read says the EXACT opposite.

osirisx69 wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

Dra'al Nacht wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
They do block line of sight, just not to the model they're attached to.

That interpretation opens the door to shenanigans. You could shield models behind massive decorative banners or similar.

It does, but it's still part of the rules.
If someone places a 12"x12" banner on the table, I'd suggest you don't play them...

You are very incorrect. Please quote from page 8 the exact words that state wings and guns block line of sight. Because the page 8 I just read says the EXACT opposite.

You're misreading it.
You cannot draw line of sight to a wing, banner, etc - this is to not penalize someone for having cool models.
There is no exception saying that you are allowed to draw LoS *through* a wing, banner, etc.

osirisx69 wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

Dra'al Nacht wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
They do block line of sight, just not to the model they're attached to.

That interpretation opens the door to shenanigans. You could shield models behind massive decorative banners or similar.

It does, but it's still part of the rules.
If someone places a 12"x12" banner on the table, I'd suggest you don't play them...

You are very incorrect. Please quote from page 8 the exact words that state wings and guns block line of sight. Because the page 8 I just read says the EXACT opposite.

The part you're missing is WHEN you can ignore decorative elements. Only when targeting the model carrying them.
All other times you must use True Line of Sight.

rigeld2 wrote:

osirisx69 wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

Dra'al Nacht wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
They do block line of sight, just not to the model they're attached to.

That interpretation opens the door to shenanigans. You could shield models behind massive decorative banners or similar.

It does, but it's still part of the rules.
If someone places a 12"x12" banner on the table, I'd suggest you don't play them...

You are very incorrect. Please quote from page 8 the exact words that state wings and guns block line of sight. Because the page 8 I just read says the EXACT opposite.

You're misreading it.
You cannot draw line of sight to a wing, banner, etc - this is to not penalize someone for having cool models.
There is no exception saying that you are allowed to draw LoS *through* a wing, banner, etc.

Nope, the rules Cleary state MODELS on page 8. I think that's the word that was missed. it doesn't say "these rules are intended to ensure that the MODEL doesn't get penelized" it says "These rules are intended to ensure that models (plural) don't get penalized.." for example if squad A is near a friendly model that has on impressive wing or gun that wing or gun does NOT confer a +5 save nor does it block line of sight. Hence the sentence saying "We IGNORE wings and tails and antennae even though they are technically part of the model's body.

... but only for drawing line of sight to a model.

There's no allowance to ignore when drawing through them.

rigeld2 wrote:
... but only for drawing line of sight to a model.

There's no allowance to ignore when drawing through them.

Prove it. Page and reference please


For one model to have a line of sight to another, you must be able to trance a straight, unblocked line from its eyes to any part of the target BODY (the head, torso,arms or legs)

Notice it does NOT say wings guns or antennae YET it does state in the second paragraph that wings guns and antennae are ignored.

So those items do NOT block line of sight...

RAW is very clear.......

osirisx69 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
... but only for drawing line of sight to a model.

There's no allowance to ignore when drawing through them.

Prove it. Page and reference please


For one model to have a line of sight to another, you must be able to trance a straight, unblocked line from its eyes to any part of the target BODY (the head, torso,arms or legs)

Notice it does NOT say wings guns or antennae YET it does state in the second paragraph that wings guns and antennae are ignored.

So those items do NOT block line of sight...

RAW is very clear.......

A straight unblocked line of sight to the targets body. Agreed.
It states in the second paragraph that.. here, I'll quote it.

page 8 wrote:Sometimes, all that will be visible of a model is a weapon, banner or other ornament he is carrying. In these cases, the model is not visible. Similarly, we ignore wings and tails, and antennae even though they are technically part of a model's body. These rules are intended to ensure that models don't get penalised for having impressive banners, weaponry, and so on.

This is, and can only be, describing what we are allowed to draw line of sight to. If all you can see is a weapon, banner, wing, antennae, or other ornament the model is not visible.
Please cite allowance to ignore them for drawing line of sight to other models.

To answer the OP instead of going off into this tangent: the rules do not allow you to just point to a spot and declare that you're pretending a model will be there. WMS only allows you to move a model and count it as being on a spot after you have successfully placed it there and requires your opponent to agree to let you use it. It allows you to avoid having to keep repositioning a model every time you bump the table, or ensure that a fragile model doesn't fall off a tall ruin and break. It does NOT allow models to go into positions they can not otherwise access or gain any other advantage.

So, RAW if decorative objects interfere with placing a model then too bad, you can't place it there.

rigeld2 wrote:

osirisx69 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
... but only for drawing line of sight to a model.

There's no allowance to ignore when drawing through them.

Prove it. Page and reference please


For one model to have a line of sight to another, you must be able to trance a straight, unblocked line from its eyes to any part of the target BODY (the head, torso,arms or legs)

Notice it does NOT say wings guns or antennae YET it does state in the second paragraph that wings guns and antennae are ignored.

So those items do NOT block line of sight...

RAW is very clear.......

A straight unblocked line of sight to the targets body. Agreed.
It states in the second paragraph that.. here, I'll quote it.

page 8 wrote:Sometimes, all that will be visible of a model is a weapon, banner or other ornament he is carrying. In these cases, the model is not visible. Similarly, we ignore wings and tails, and antennae even though they are technically part of a model's body. These rules are intended to ensure that models don't get penalised for having impressive banners, weaponry, and so on.

This is, and can only be, describing what we are allowed to draw line of sight to. If all you can see is a weapon, banner, wing, antennae, or other ornament the model is not visible.
Please cite allowance to ignore them for drawing line of sight to other models.

I did and you can look at my previous post for page number and exact wording, asking me to post the same fact material over again is useless.

osirisx69 wrote:
I did and you can look at my previous post for page number and exact wording, asking me to post the same fact material over again is useless.

No, you haven't posted that allowance. Do you agree that drawing line of sight to something is different from drawing line of sight through something?

"This is, and can only be, describing what we are allowed to draw line of sight to. If all you can see is a weapon, banner, wing, antennae, or other ornament the model is not visible."

I totally agree "hence" his gun wings or antennae does NOT block line of sight per RAW.

No - they do not allow you to draw line of sight to a model. That does not mean that if you cannot see a target because someone else's wing is in the way that you ignore the wing and fire away.

Are we saying the same thing? if we are then okay if we are not please post page number that PROVES (per this forums rules) that wings guns or antennae block LOS.

I have proven it. You have taken a paragraph and applied it to a definition broader than it addresses with no reason.

OP: I agree with Peregrine from a RAW standpoint, however in actual play, I would allow it as long as the original model could realistically fit there.

To the LoS question: There is a vast difference between being unable to draw a line of sight TO a wing/banner/etc. and drawing a line of sight THROUGH the same to a different target. The section talking about these items is describing what you can target. Just because you are unable to target something, does not mean you get to ignore it otherwise.

rigeld2 wrote:

osirisx69 wrote:
I did and you can look at my previous post for page number and exact wording, asking me to post the same fact material over again is useless.

No, you haven't posted that allowance. Do you agree that drawing line of sight to something is different from drawing line of sight through something?

"This is, and can only be, describing what we are allowed to draw line of sight to. If all you can see is a weapon, banner, wing, antennae, or other ornament the model is not visible."

I totally agree "hence" his gun wings or antennae does NOT block line of sight per RAW.

No - they do not allow you to draw line of sight to a model. That does not mean that if you cannot see a target because someone else's wing is in the way that you ignore the wing and fire away.

Are we saying the same thing? if we are then okay if we are not please post page number that PROVES (per this forums rules) that wings guns or antennae block LOS.

I have proven it. You have taken a paragraph and applied it to a definition broader than it addresses with no reason.

No, you have'nt proven anything. You have not conformed to these forums rules about disproving an argument at all. You just stated I am incorrect and never posted where I am wrong. You have yoru opinion but its wrong.

Besides we have basically stolen the OP post and I will be the better poster and move this discussion somewhere else.

Sorry to the OP about stealing this thread.