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1750

High Marshall Helbrecht
180

Honour Guard
Chapter Banner
285

Land Raider Crusader w/ Multi Melta and Extra Amour
270

ADL 50

Assault Squad
Melta Bomb
2 Flamers
Drop Pod
100

Assault Squad
Melta Bomb
2 Flamers
Drop Pod
100

Assault Squad
Melta Bomb
2 Flamers
Drop Pod
100

Crusader Squad
Drop Pod
Meltagun
Sword Brother w/ Combi Melta
135
CC weps

Crusader Squad
Drop Pod
Meltagun
Sword Brother w/ Combi Melta
135
CC weps

Crusader Squad
5 Neophytes
Lascannon
140
Bolters

Crusader Squad
4 Neophytes
Lascannon
130
Bolters

Stalker
75

Thunderfire Cannon 100

This list relies on an alpha strike with the drop pods, while having a cover hopping backfield taking potshots while the assault marines and Hounour guard beat around, With helbrecht the hounour guard w/ power mauls will each do 5 S7 attacks rerolling to hit on the charge, or 4 if disordered or they are charged (unlikely) and unlike terminators they are not as sussecptible to volume of fire as they are actually more durable to weight of fire than marines eliminating the problem terminators have suffered from for ages, this list seems to be able to handle other deathstars chaff and mech well, the biggest worry is MC spam specifically slying ones, which is why i brought the Stalker, i wasnt sure that was as good decision but it fit the points and helped the problem i had.

Comments and criticism welcome.

Tau and Eldar players are proving CC to be dead. And it is.

 Julnlecs wrote:
Tau and Eldar players are proving CC to be dead. And it is.

Not only is that unconstructive but fairly untrue in this case, I play tau and regularly play against eldar. 6 Alpha strike flamers will do serious damage to any tau gunline, skimmer tanks will be well handeled by the stalker. Those min sized assault squads will have no problem sweeping tau on a charge even if only one is left alive. This list while not perfect shoulid do very well against both tau gunline and eldar serpent spam, either with multi charge S7 and mass melta/lascannon or flamers wrecking troops dug in behind aegis lines.

CC is dead because less of the real choppy armies (Orks and Nids) have had their 6th edition updates yet relative to the shooty stuff

If its still shooty after the Ork dex comes out I'm selling my models and ditching the game.

Jakobokaj wrote:

 Julnlecs wrote:
Tau and Eldar players are proving CC to be dead. And it is.

Not only is that unconstructive but fairly untrue in this case, I play tau and regularly play against eldar. 6 Alpha strike flamers will do serious damage to any tau gunline, skimmer tanks will be well handeled by the stalker. Those min sized assault squads will have no problem sweeping tau on a charge even if only one is left alive. This list while not perfect shoulid do very well against both tau gunline and eldar serpent spam, either with multi charge S7 and mass melta/lascannon or flamers wrecking troops dug in behind aegis lines.

After your alpha strike (what's left after the riptides rip you a new one), you die. If you don't, your Tau opponent is the issue, not your amazing strat. They have the firepower to do it, especially backed up by Eldar spell casting.

The previous poster speaks the truth. That's why I mostly shoot with my BA, because I get laughed at less than trying to chop.

I see where you are coming from martel, I think with an assault cannon 6 Melta guns and 2 lascannons i will be able to at least threaten riptides, especially if i manage to get honour guard into the fray. And should i be able to get the land raider through the first turn of fire i can launch a large multi charge into a generally turtled tau line, As the marines will still get 4 attacks a pop, more than enough to handle tau. And surprisingly this game isnt a game of annhilation. I have a good number of bodies and a way to boost cover while safely removing pathfinders to get rid of their ignores cover allowing me to bunker down on objectives.

My BA beg to differ. We get annihilated quite a bit, thank you. And that's through FNP saves, too. And shield of sanguinius. The xeno armies are NUTS now.

The Riptides will be bubble-wrapped so your meltas can't engage.

I think that your model count is two low to be honest. CC is not dead in 6th edition... In past editions I played with nids and guard and it was all about accepting and mitigating casualties in order to make it to the objective in fighting strength. Now all be it this is harder with marines because on the low model count, it is also easier at the same time because you are going to shrug off a lot of the small arms fire. I myself love drop pods because they are able to reliably get my troops to the heart of the fight or on to a vital objective on turn one, but I don't ever consider these as throw away units. after the initial alpha strike you have to either press the advantage by keeping the enemy locked or by falling back to a location that better suits you do to a bad dice roll or catastrophic counter attack. You have to be smart to play a close combat army... the days of turn one assault are long gone and I feel that those you complain are merely those you have failed to relize their lists own short comings and adapt to an ever changing battlefield.

Low model count is the life of BA now. There is no way to prevent that. Our stuff costs too many game points. There is no way to adapt the BA to 6th. I've tried and tried. BA stuff costs too many points for its efficacy.

Drop pods are a double edged sword. Your opponent has one turn at least to fire his entire list at your stuff. I cut drop lists to pieces (that aren't SW) quite frequently.

The more dangerous lists start with all their stuff on the map and shoot a massive amount.

Don't get me wrong, I have had my fair share of drop list mishaps... and my fair share of losses... but I play smart and I cant think of a single time I have ever been tabled.

Against the fire power of Tau and Eldar, coupled with the fact that my FLGS has little LOS blocking terrain, makes for a lot of tablings.

Space marines shouldn't have to count on hiding,though. I always thought the LOS blocking terrain argument was lame as hell.

Are your Eldar/Tau players using net lists?

Maybe? Tau seems to like farseer on bike with 2 min jetbike squad, ethereal and fw support shadowsun broadside backup and 2 riptides.
Eldar runs mechspam generally with occasional wraithspam/

It's hard to know lately about tabling. My last three games involving Tau and/or Eldar, we stopped them early because they were just out of hand in favor of the Eldar/Tau.

Maybe the new marine codex changes this a little, but my BA are losing incredibly lopsided battles to these armies. And my opponents aren't even trying hard.

I don't think its me, because I massacre other BA players and can deal with the 5th edition space marines as well. And Tyranids not using net lists.

Martel732 wrote:
.

Space marines shouldn't have to count on hiding,

That's just the thing, with all the AP3 and AP2 weapons these armies possess you have to learn to hide a little some times. Especially when the dice turn against you or if just hunkering down on an objective until the end of the game.

There's no where to hide on these battle boards. Cover, yes, but scatter laser/shuricannon spam doesn't give a feth about cover. I can't make enough saves to avoid being crippled in no time. It's not even the AP 3 and AP 2 weapons. It's the wound spam. Eldar player: Make me 50 saves! Betcha fail a lot of them!

And wave serpents are practically immortal.

Sounds like terrain options might be screwing you over a little bit. Idk if your FLGS has a lack of it or if you just aren't "participating" in your table set up during the pregame. I mean I understand If you are in a tournament than there is nothing you can do, but in a friendly game I always make sure that there are a couple choice pieces of cover if need be on the table. This is not cheating as long as you and your opponent are setting up together. All I'm saying is that If you are allowing terrain to handicap you every game then you are going to always have a problem. After all how do you think that all the xenos armies used to survive before you got cover saves from your own guys?

Even if I had a bit of LOS blocking terrain, they'd just kill the stuff they can see. If Eldar guns were 24" like our crappy ass assault cannons, I could get something done. But they spam huge amounts of S6/7 out to 36". Then shurikens at close range, then overwatch. And BA trying to out shoot them is a joke.

Space wolves do this better in every way using grey hunters and rune priests. They have counter attack which is better than winning challenges. You will get assaulted and shot before you have the chance to assault second turn, so you may as well have run across the table with more dudes. The wolves get away with this because they have counter attack and the rune priest has jaws or divination which are both way more nuts than helbrecht in this case because hatred and furious charge wont mean a lot when you get charged. You will only get 3 drop pods, with bolt pistols you have the opposite of alpha.

If you want to Melee, look into taking 6 x 10 initiate +10 neophytes, a chapter banner (maybe on a chaplain to be cheap) and ally in Tigirius for biomancy and divination. I think you're right about the honor guard but i'd do it with a storm raven.

You could take that same crusader squads with tigirius and scouts with boltguns and do upto 250 boltgun shots in your first turn though. This is a much more survivable tactic.

I don't think assault is dead. Play against a Khorne dogs list. Assault is alive a kicking brilliantly!

However drop podding in 5 man units is not the way to do assault. Tau will kill you before you shoot. Most Tau armies will put 2-3 S8 AP2 blasts on you in intercept and somewhere between 32 and 72 S5/7 twin linked shots at you also on intercept. I'm guessing your "alpha strike" dies before it ever shoots.

However Tau particularly and Eldar to a lesser extent struggle to deal with AV14. This is another problem with your list. Anyone can deal with one AV14 tank. 2, 3 or more and it starts to cause a problem. I would reduce the HG squad and pack in more Crusader squads also in Landraiders and go for a massed AV14 assault with BTs you should be putting 3 AV14 hulls down. Also a beat sstick CM for me is a better option than Helbrecht.

So generally "assualt" is not strong compared to shooting unless it is a beast, or ignores terrain.
Beast packs, maulerfiends, khorne dogs, spawn, etc all move further, faster, and easier than traditional assualt units.

Assualt is not dead, unless your a generic assualt unit.

If assualt was still so viable people would still use hormagaunts... But since its not even tyranids are a shooting army now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw tau should annihilate most assualt armies.

Rip tides with interceptor will destroy those 5 man squads and if you get charged you get combined fire.

If you can't get your units into assualt your playing wrong... is it dangerous to charge people now? it can be. you have to learn to time your charges.

Drop the two crusader squads with lascannons and add in 2 thunderfire cannons

3 TF cannons shooting away while your opponent has to deal with your drop pod units should work out well.

 Whereswaldo wrote:
Drop the two crusader squads and add in 2 thunderfire cannons

3 TF cannons shooting away while your opponent has to deal with your drop pod units should work out well.

I agree thunderfires are nasty, but two problems with that first being i can only take 1 with the land raider in my list (it isnt a dedicated transport) and seocind their biggest use seems to be clearing out objective holders or units in terrain, which is well handeled by the assault marines with flamers, which i would be open to using. I think the Land Raider deathbomb should be able to handle a lot as 50 S7 attacks is absurd, Especially when you consider that its only 25 pts a pop for a model putting out 5 S7 concussive hits that re roll to hit. The biggest problem I see is a monster mash list which can cost effectively handle my cc squad but having AP 2 attacks hit my Honour guard before they get a chance to beat back.

didn't notice the land raider at the start of the list .... in that case you might want to think about dropping your TF and run x2 vindicators.

a land raider flanked by 2 vindicators will ruin most people's day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and if your running armor you need more than just 1 unit on the board .... I run a DA tri-raider at 1500 points, most people can deal with 1 AV 14 unit .... they cant deal with 2-3 consistently (even though the vindicator is 13) but running the vindicators most people will leave your land raider alone and focus them and if they dont, congrats on lobbing str 10 pie plates.