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I understand this board is for the argument of such stuff as RAW over RAI. I have a couple ones that make people cringe just to hear it, but obviously RAW my ideas work. Not my fault GW didn't make it explicity clear that is how my Dark Angel codex works.

1. Marine Bikes: It states specifically under marine bikes that I can fire a weapon per model on the bike. If I modeled a bike with 3 marines riding it wouldn't I be able to fire my plasma gun, twin-linked bolter, and bolt pistol all off the same bike? It doesn't specify how many marines are on the bike, just the equipment.

2. Dark angels can take an infinite number of techmarines and servitors minus requiring 1 HQ and 2 troops. Since you can take a Techmarine from the 1 HQ then a servitor for the techmarine, then a techmarine for the servitor etc etc etc.

1) That's modeling for advantage, which is covered in the main rule rulebook, no dice.

2) You can take a single Techmarine per HQ slot. You can take 4 servitors per Techmarine. No dice.

1. The unit (model) is a Space Marine Biker and he has a piece of wargear called Space Marine Bike. This marine owns the bike, the bike does not own the marine. RAW = 1 marine per bike.

2. I don't have DA codex on hand, however the new SM codex reads as follows: C:SM pg. 166 "For each HQ choice in your army (not including other techmarines, servitors, command squads, or honor guard) you may include one techmarine."

If it doesn't say it like this, then you're probably right about infinite techmarines. I'll check it tomorrow when I get to work and have the DA codex.

 Sothas wrote:
1. The unit (model) is a Space Marine Biker and he has a piece of wargear called Space Marine Bike. This marine owns the bike, the bike does not own the marine. RAW = 1 marine per bike.

2. I don't have DA codex on hand, however the new SM codex reads as follows: C:SM pg. 166 "For each HQ choice in your army (not including other techmarines, servitors, command squads, or honor guard) you may include one techmarine."

If it doesn't say it like this, then you're probably right about infinite techmarines. I'll check it tomorrow when I get to work and have the DA codex.

For number 2, the wording is the same for Techmarines, but the "not including" list is exclusively "other Techmarines or Command Squads of any type." Servitors are one for each Techmarine. So yes, strictly speaking infinite Techmarines are possibly as each Techmarine will unlock a squad of servitors, who will themselves unlock another Techmarine so on and so forth.

As a bonus, Command Squads are on the same wording as Techmarines, so you can get infinite Command Squads (unlocked by servitors) to go with your infinite Techmarines and Servitors.

Hmmm, an army of purely a librarian, 2 squads of scouts, and a whole crapton of command squads. Could be legit. I like my idea of an army of 36 plasma cannons on servitors.

If your first supposition were true Wazdakka would be beastly, as long as you glued a couple of grots to his bike. Marine bikes aren't the only ones that get the rule, all bikes do. BS 3 (due to the grots doing the firing wouldn't hurt..). While i'm at it i could use Heralds from the Daemon codex (allied) glued to his bike for BS 5...

Wazdakka has an overabundance of firearms to choose from.

Unfortunately, this is no-go. It's trying to flange more than the game intends. Pretty much the only reason the rule is there is to allow SM Attack Bikes to fire the sidecar gun.

There is also an unwritten rule called 'don't be a dick'. Certain things that can be raw-wrangled are dickish in the extreme, and will lose you willing opponent fast. If you don't mind playing with yourself, you can argue whatever interpretation of the rule you like. I try to play in a manner where i'm likely to have my opponent want to play me again, as i like playing the game more than i do arguing the minutiae of the somewhat loosely-worded rules. YMMV of course

As to the Techmarines, that may be possible, I would have to look at the exact wording in the DA codex to be sure.

Why you would want that many Techmarines is another question, but each to their own.

icefire78 wrote:
I understand this board is for the argument of such stuff as RAW over RAI. I have a couple ones that make people cringe just to hear it, but obviously RAW my ideas work. Not my fault GW didn't make it explicity clear that is how my Dark Angel codex works.

1. Marine Bikes: It states specifically under marine bikes that I can fire a weapon per model on the bike. If I modeled a bike with 3 marines riding it wouldn't I be able to fire my plasma gun, twin-linked bolter, and bolt pistol all off the same bike? It doesn't specify how many marines are on the bike, just the equipment.

I'm pretty sure that the "question" (to be fully charitable on the matter) concerning gluing extra models onto a bike for more shots is old enough to have spawned plays, short stories, and dramatic reinterpretations. Most of them are comedies. None of them end well for the person proposing to glue extra free models onto the bike.

So if you don't want a "RAW vs. RAI" discussion on the matter, I hope you're looking for riotous laughter, applause at a joke well delivered, or similar commentary on your literary work.

 Ascalam wrote:

There is also an unwritten rule called 'don't be a dick'. Certain things that can be raw-wrangled are dickish in the extreme, and will lose you willing opponent fast. If you don't mind playing with yourself, you can argue whatever interpretation of the rule you like..

I feel like 95% of YMDC posts could be solved with this rule.

"Don't be a dick" is not a RAW rule. Even if it were, "dick" is a subjective moniker. GW is 100% at fault for writing rules with holes I can fit a Kaiju through.

There are no rules in the book considering cheating, MFA, list tailoring and being a bad sport in general, so "RAW" you're allowed to do all that.

However, in my playing group there is one player who always crushes players as hard as possible, no matter their skill, tries shady tactics in grey areas of the rules, secretly sets up matched army lists with his team partner while telling the all others that teams will be made when we get there, and always sets up perfectly tailored lists against whoever he is playing. None of that is against a single rule in the BRB.
But guess what? He has 6000 points of eldar and 5000 points of beautifully painted daemons gathering dust because no one wants to play him anymore. Some players of our gaming group even stopped playing altogether because they didn't want to sacrifice an entire Sunday afternoon getting crushed by a list tailored to beat exactly those 1500 points of necrons they own, while having to fight over rules the whole time.

RAW is exactly that, rules as written. It's the rules about how your miniatures are supposed act - not the rules how you are supposed to act. Crushing your opponent with 2000 points of techmarines will only give the you short-term satisfaction of having won the game, while leaving the long-term impression that you are a bad sport.

That said, I think discussing RAI on YMDC is a waste of time, especially to the point of 10 page threads. As we can usually only ever guess intentions of a writer (if there were any to begin with), all we can do is state opinions. Opinions are never right or wrong - they differ by nature. One should just state how he would interpret the rule and leave it at that. There is no point in discussing it, as no one ever changes someone's opinion on the internet, and if you think that someones RAI is wrong, you can simply ignore it and not play that way.
If RAW is clear it's even more useless. RAW ruling are sometimes pretty stupid (like the Servitor/Techmarine thing), but no amount of internet rage is going to change it. Discussing it with your regular opponents, a TO or a person you are about to play does. None of those are found here on YMDC.

statas wrote:

 Ascalam wrote:

There is also an unwritten rule called 'don't be a dick'. Certain things that can be raw-wrangled are dickish in the extreme, and will lose you willing opponent fast. If you don't mind playing with yourself, you can argue whatever interpretation of the rule you like..

I feel like 95% of YMDC posts could be solved with this rule.

If you honestly think that you don't understand what YMDC is about.

icefire78 wrote:

1. Marine Bikes: It states specifically under marine bikes that I can fire a weapon per model on the bike. If I modeled a bike with 3 marines riding it wouldn't I be able to fire my plasma gun, twin-linked bolter, and bolt pistol all off the same bike? It doesn't specify how many marines are on the bike, just the equipment.

 Cortez667 wrote:
1) That's modeling for advantage, which is covered in the main rule rulebook, no dice.

This

icefire78 wrote:

2. Dark angels can take an infinite number of techmarines and servitors minus requiring 1 HQ and 2 troops. Since you can take a Techmarine from the 1 HQ then a servitor for the techmarine, then a techmarine for the servitor etc etc etc.

 Cortez667 wrote:
2) You can take a single Techmarine per HQ slot. You can take 4 servitors per Techmarine. No dice.

This. Per the Codex:

'For each HQ choice in your army (not including other Techmarines or Command Squads of any type) you may include a Techmarine. These selections do not use up a Force Organisation slot."

The word 'these' would refer to the max number of techmarine in the army. Under 2k points you get 2 HQs. Over 2k you get 4.

On the servitor front 'You may include one unit of servitors for each techmainre in your army. They do not use up a FO slot.'

And you really can take 5 servitors per techmairine. 'may include up tp 4 additional servitors'.

Servitors are an HQ choice and not a Techmarine or Command Squad. Therefore a Servitor unlocks a Techmarine.

Yes, it's RAW. And?

 jason1977 wrote:

On the servitor front 'You may include one unit of servitors for each techmarine in your army. They do not use up a Force Organisation slot.'

This is directly from the DA Codex word for word. You cannot take servitors by themselves. Servitos are also 'mindlocked'. Why would you want your HQ to be mindlocked??

 jason1977 wrote:

 jason1977 wrote:

On the servitor front 'You may include one unit of servitors for each techmarine in your army. They do not use up a Force Organisation slot.'

This is directly from the DA Codex word for word. You cannot take servitors by themselves. Servitos are also 'mindlocked'. Why would you want your HQ to be mindlocked??

No one is saying you can.

Take any HQ choice - you've unlocked a Techmarine.
Take a Techmarine - you've unlocked a Servitor.
Take a Servitor - you've unlocked a Techmarine.
Infinite loop.

People don't even take one Techmarine, let alone infinite

rigeld2 wrote:

Take any HQ choice - you've unlocked a Techmarine.
Take a Techmarine - you've unlocked a Servitor.
Take a Servitor - you've unlocked a Techmarine.
Infinite loop.

I do not disagree with your first two points. I cannot see how the 3rd point is done. Servitors cannot be taken alone. They need a techmarine.

For every HQ, take one TM. For every TM, take 1-5 serv. Yes, servitors are listed seperatly (when perhaps they should be an upgrade) from the Techmarine but it does state 'include one unit of servitors for each techmarine'.

 jason1977 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Take any HQ choice - you've unlocked a Techmarine.
Take a Techmarine - you've unlocked a Servitor.
Take a Servitor - you've unlocked a Techmarine.
Infinite loop.

I do not disagree with your first two points. I cannot see how the 3rd point is done. Servitors cannot be taken alone. They need a techmarine.

For every HQ, take one TM. For every TM, take 1-5 serv. Yes, servitors are listed seperatly (when perhaps they should be an upgrade) from the Techmarine but it does state 'include one unit of servitors for each techmarine'.

You've seemingly missed his point. He's saying all these things happen in that order, not that they happen independently. He's saying, that due to the fact that a servitor is a separate entry, it is an HQ entry. You much take a techmarine first, and before that, a normal HQ. Everyone agrees on that. What this is say is that the servitor, because it is a stand alone HQ, unlocks an additional techmarine which then unlocks another servitor. Then that servitor unlocks a techmarine, and the cycle continues.

He doesn't disagree with you either.

Every unit of servitors you take will have a tech marine to lead it. However, since that unit is a HQ choice, you may buy another techmarine. That second techmarine may now get another unit of servitors which he then leads. If you chose to get that unit (which is a HQ choice), you may buy a third tech marine, who in turn may have some more servitors. Rinse and repeat until you're out of points or out of techmarine models.

This is most likely a mindgame anyways. I doubt someone would buy a dozen techmarines and even more servitors just for that stunt, especially since it might easily fall victim to a FAQ, making all those models useless.

 jason1977 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Take any HQ choice - you've unlocked a Techmarine.
Take a Techmarine - you've unlocked a Servitor.
Take a Servitor - you've unlocked a Techmarine.
Infinite loop.

I do not disagree with your first two points. I cannot see how the 3rd point is done. Servitors cannot be taken alone. They need a techmarine.

For every HQ, take one TM. For every TM, take 1-5 serv. Yes, servitors are listed seperatly (when perhaps they should be an upgrade) from the Techmarine but it does state 'include one unit of servitors for each techmarine'.

Sure - And when you take a servitor (after they're unlocked by a techmarine) you unlock another techmarine. Which unlocks a servitor. Which unlocks a techmarine.

at what point does the fac tthat he exceeds the 2 HQ limit of the FoC come into it?

yes the servitors don't count but do not the Tech marines in the DA codex?? (I do have a copy but my freind has it)

Nope as they dont take up HQ slots.

I was at a tourny this weekend which ruled ignores cover does not affect vehicles, this has been argued on here before with no clear answer. Spoiled it as 3+ cover skyshields gave holofielded serpents 2+ cover.

Just my 2 cents..

MarkyMark wrote:


I was at a tourny this weekend which ruled ignores cover does not affect vehicles, this has been argued on here before with no clear answer. Spoiled it as 3+ cover skyshields gave holofielded serpents 2+ cover.

Just my 2 cents..

What does this have to do with anything? What 'ignores cover' are you talking about? None of this line makes sense in the context of this thread.

If someone wants to field that many servitors and Techmarines, I'd be fine with it.... hardly an unstoppable force

 Sothas wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:


I was at a tourny this weekend which ruled ignores cover does not affect vehicles, this has been argued on here before with no clear answer. Spoiled it as 3+ cover skyshields gave holofielded serpents 2+ cover.

Just my 2 cents..

What does this have to do with anything? What 'ignores cover' are you talking about? None of this line makes sense in the context of this thread.

The post title RAW versus RAI.

Read as written wounds caused by weapons with the ignores cover USR cannot take cover saves against them, Vehicles do not suffer wounds so ignores cover does not work on vehicles. Pretty simple if you know the rules.

It is a example of when RAW spoils the game when it is exploited. Simple.

MarkyMark wrote:

 Sothas wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:


I was at a tourny this weekend which ruled ignores cover does not affect vehicles, this has been argued on here before with no clear answer. Spoiled it as 3+ cover skyshields gave holofielded serpents 2+ cover.

Just my 2 cents..

What does this have to do with anything? What 'ignores cover' are you talking about? None of this line makes sense in the context of this thread.

The post title RAW versus RAI.

Read as written wounds caused by weapons with the ignores cover USR cannot take cover saves against them, Vehicles do not suffer wounds so ignores cover does not work on vehicles. Pretty simple if you know the rules.

It is a example of when RAW spoils the game when it is exploited. Simple.

Except, vehicles take cover saves against hits exactly the same way as infantry does against wounds. How does an infantry model take cover saves against wounds caused by a weapon with Ignores Cover? That is how a vehicle takes cover saves against the same.

Yes and a vehicle would ignore any wounds caused when it passes its cover save (or indeed invulnerable save). RaW the game simply doesn't work and only an idiot or cheat would try to play that:

Only unhelmeted human models can shoot or charge.

FMCs don't have relentless or smash.

FMCs do have relentless smash which does nothing.

Models with 2+ armour save on a chariot auto-pass all armour saves.

Etc etc etc.

Yet all are clear RaW.