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Since the new book's out, I thought I'd set up a discussion thread for Codex: Space Marines armies using the Black Templars trait.

I'll kick off the discussion with discussing MSU Crusader Squads in Drop Pods:

We now have the option of taking a 5-man squad with a special, combi-special and heavy weapon in a Drop Pod. Using melta as an example, that'd only be around 140 points for a 5-man squad with Meltagun, Multi-melta and Combi-Melta. This obviously might not be as good with plasma, as the Plasma Cannon can't move and fire, but it's certainly worth thinking about IMO, especially since normal TAC squads can't take both a heavy and a special weapon at 5 men.

On a similar note, instead of taking the Heavy Weapon we could add two Power Weapon/Fist and have a 5-man squad with two special weapons on the turn they drop that can then proceed to fight decently in CC without breaking the bank. Having access to a second (hidden) Power Weapon/Fist over lesser Chapters means the Crusader Squad will, surprisingly enough, be better at CC than a TAC squad, even if you decide to keep bolters on people.

On a related note, the lasplas squad is still alive and kicking, giving us better objective camper units than the rest of the book (arguably, at least).

Post away!

I definitely like that BT's can now take scout squads. Cheap scoring units that have infiltrate, etc. It allows some mid board camping and positioning early on that BT didn't have before. Currently, I'm looking at running a dual landraider crusader/ dual storm raven list. There is lots of stuff I'm looking into. I definitely think the Biker Marshal with the shield of awesome is definitely going to be the premier HQ choice. In a horde style list, I think Helbrect is worth taking now. He's a better force multiplier than before. So many ideas rolling around in my head....LOL.

While I agree with above post about MSUs, I feel like the rest of our rules and special characters are a bit lukewarm. Emperor's Champ is a bargain character but Hellbrecht feels like a 1-trick pony and Grimaldus feels a bit clunky (you want the servitors but he can't join squads anymore when you get them...)
While a LRC/crusader-squad spam might be interesting, it doesn't leave much room for much else...

I'm interested to see if some people come up with some good combos.

Definitely thinking that bike squads with dual Grav guns will be used. They'll murder Riptides...

Very basic question, would I be shortselling the rest of a Black Templar list if I take:

(Land Raider Crusader + 10 Initiates + 6 Neophytes + Power Fist + replace Boltgun with Chainsword) x 2

They would be 2 big scoring squads that I could hide if need be but have the bodies to put the hurt in an assault if need be.

Been trying to do the math and sadly I don't really see the Crusader Squad blobs in LRCs as a competitive option.
You're sinking around 500pts in a single squad that's still rather "meh" in CC; you'd want to take 2 of those to avoid getting isolated and shredded which then leaves very little room for fire support and anti-air...

I'm at a bit of a loss... maybe as an ally (send the LRC forward with a scoring blob)... don't know....

Help?!

I'm really stuck for what to do with my Templars now Sternguard 'Sword Bretheren' seems the way to go, but as I don't have any at the minute I don't have any ideas

Same. LRC's suck now with no option for Dozer Blades. I'm not spending 265 pts on 1 model that can become worthless with a single roll.

When was the last time anyone put Dozer Blades on a LRC?

Crusaders are amazing tanks. Expensive, but amazing.

If you're saying that due to a 1 in 6 chance on Dangerous Terrain they suck, that's a bad reason.

I took 2 in my DW and they won games for me and not once did they get shafted by dangerous terrain.

I plan on taking two and an Achilles in my IH.

1 in 6 is worth the risk.

Think on this. 5 man crusader squad with las cannonor multimelta and meltagun in a rhino with a storm bolter on top. Its like 130 or 140 points. Have a few of those running around like cheap mini tanks shooting out of the firing ports. Then do your big blobs on foot or in a LRC for the assault. 5 or these rhino squads is only 700 points...that leaves me a lot of points for my other stuff.

 Isean wrote:
Think on this. 5 man crusader squad with las cannonor multimelta and meltagun in a rhino with a storm bolter on top. Its like 130 or 140 points. Have a few of those running around like cheap mini tanks shooting out of the firing ports. Then do your big blobs on foot or in a LRC for the assault. 5 or these rhino squads is only 700 points...that leaves me a lot of points for my other stuff.

Can you fire on the move out of a Rhino hatch?

I've never used anything smaller than a Land Raider, so I've never had need to fire from a hatch

As for the chapter master, I see two practical ways to take him. Always with shield eternal...but either on a bike with artificer armor, or in terminator armor. Why only these two ways? Relentless. Black Templars can now do orbital bombardment...which is very cool, but for a character that wants to get inn CC asap...you MUST have relentless to use it because ideally you are only going to have one shooting phase before the Marshall is beating faces in.

Also...I know people like thunder hammers but really think lightning claws. You already re roll hits in challenges. Now you would reroll wounds. I know x2 strength on the hammer is good but anything you challenge is likely not going to get ID by it...so go with the more wound generating weapon. Also...the lower strength is nice because you get a reroll chance to get that rending. If anyone could math hammer LC vs TH against things like MCs and stuff that would be great.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Puscifer wrote:

 Isean wrote:
Think on this. 5 man crusader squad with las cannonor multimelta and meltagun in a rhino with a storm bolter on top. Its like 130 or 140 points. Have a few of those running around like cheap mini tanks shooting out of the firing ports. Then do your big blobs on foot or in a LRC for the assault. 5 or these rhino squads is only 700 points...that leaves me a lot of points for my other stuff.

Can you fire on the move out of a Rhino hatch?

I've never used anything smaller than a Land Raider, so I've never had need to fire from a hatch

Yes two models can fire from a rhino's firing ports. I would shoot my special and heavy. That and the storm bolter make it as if your 5 man squad just got 11 armor in front and sides. It really protects them from the small arms and keeps them mobile. Also it can move 6 inches and IIRC the lascannon is still full BS. Could be wrong on that part though

The firing at max BS on the move was my concern. I'll have to check the book on that.

The transported unit counts as having moved too, so snap-shots only for the heavies.

As far as CC setup, I'd rather have the AP2 Burning Blade than the Shield, with proper positioning of your squad and LOS you can dodge the insta-kill wounds while the ability to strike at initiative with S7 AP2 (+1A for dual CCW) AND force your opponent to potentially reduce his WS to 1 is pure awesomeness (just tried it yesterday against Necrons!)

While I can absolutely see the benefit of the "hidden" extra PF or PW in the squad, I'm just not sure about the special/heavy setup. Before we could run in the enemy shooting phase and it sometimes helped getting a "free" move for the heavy weapon model but now as soon as it moves you're snap-firing so you're drastically reducing the effectiveness of that heavy weapon. Maybe in an all-pod MSU Black Templar army where you can place them turn 1 and then hopefully not need to move the rest of the game while keeping your special weapon in range.

A full Black Tide list? I could see Tau and CSM smiling at the thought of the carnage they could unleash.
LRC rush? Doesn't leave much for support fire and AA...

Truly unsure about a good setup...

Saythings wrote:
Same. LRC's suck now with no option for Dozer Blades. I'm not spending 265 pts on 1 model that can become worthless with a single roll.

Don't go off-roading?

LRC rush with Stormtalons coming in for AA and support would work. A mostly Black Tide setup in LRCs would use no fast attack slots so you could easily find points for 2 stormtalons that would really mess with the enemy. Most people I know would probably shoot what they had at the flyers, meaning my LRCs are just that much more likely to make it into assault range.

Now that Chapter Masters with relentless can call down their orbital strike...marines maybe be able to alpha-strike tau broadside teams off the board before they fire, due to the fact that it ignores cover, causes ID, and ignores armor.
Not a bad deal at all, kill them could go a long way to getting your troops into assault. Same goes for dark reapers boosted by Tau commanders for tank hunting properties.

It doesn't ignore armour if the enemy is in area terrain.

 phoenix darkus wrote:
It doesn't ignore armour if the enemy is in area terrain.

Does ignore armor, doesn't ignore the 5+ cover keeping them alive, i can live with that

 macc92 wrote:
I'm really stuck for what to do with my Templars now Sternguard 'Sword Bretheren' seems the way to go, but as I don't have any at the minute I don't have any ideas

Have around 8 guys, upgrade 2 guys with melta-combi-bolter (for "opportunity targets"), have one with heavy flamer (great troop kill and being charged pain), kit out sgt with weapons you see fit, throw all in drop pod (consider upgrading the storm bolter), use special ammo as you see fit.

<edit> gah! misunderstood, what to do now without sternguard since you do not have any:

You can field small squads with all the Hvy/Special weapons. Ride around in Rhinos as suggested, drop in drop pods as "disposable" assassins on the cheap.

Bikes with gravity guns seem to be where many are looking to get a few giggles.

At least one "blob" group in a LRC looks good (jump out and dakka OR go all CC, your choice).

Try out all the different vehicles and units we were not allowed to have in the past.

Get some aircraft?

I am sure you will figure out.

Is there a way to use CC crusaders effectively any more? They're no better than assault marines in CC, except for one extra power weapon, but that's still pretty lackluster. I like the idea of scoring CC marines, maybe a foot horde full 19 man?
Sword brother with power fist
9 initiates with power axe and melta
9 neophytes
276 pts
Maybe add a character?

I think the important things to think about when building a BT list are the advantages our chapter tactics give us (because otherwise you might as well use a different chapter). Unfortunately, our chapter tactics themselves are pretty lackluster, so the main advantage we have are our Crusader squads.

Crusader squads are generally better than tactical squads, but only built certain ways. Here are what I consider to be the Crusader squad builds that are undeniably better than their tactical squad equivalents (or do not have tactical squad equivalents):
- 5 or 6 man objective camper units. Give them a heavy and a special and skip out on the Sword Brethren.
- 15-16 man squads kitted out for CC with a dedicated LRC.
- Drop pod/Rhino squads kitted out for CC. Some people with question how effective these units can be (myself included), but I'm certainly going to give them a shot.
- 19-20 man (depending on your reading of the rules) footslogging squads.

These builds may or may not be better than the tactical squad equivalent:
- 5-6 man drop pod units. We can build ours for CC or take a heavy weapon, unlike tac squads. Tac squads get the advantage of not having to upgrade to a veteran to get a combi-weapon. If you're putting small drop pod units in your BT army without kitting them for CC or giving them a heavy weapon, you should be using tac squads instead of crusaders.
- 5-6 man razorback units. Same comparison as drop pod units.

And this build is worse than the tactical squad equivalent:
- 10 man units kitted out for shooting. Tac squads can take a combi-weapon for 10 points cheaper by avoiding the veteran upgrade.

Now the real question is: how do we use this information to build a competitive army?

Puscifer wrote:
When was the last time anyone put Dozer Blades on a LRC?

1 week ago.

As for "Don't go off-roading", I don't have a say on terrain set-up in tournaments. There are going to be multiple pieces of terrain between the enemy and me. If you're not taking the shortest distance between you and the enemy, it's just more time to get shot at.

Obviously, this is my opinion. I don't think I'll be using LRs for a while. I'm going to test out Rhino Rush again. At least when they become immobilized I only loss 35 points. I know they aren't assault vehicles, but if your LR becomes immobilized you're probably not getting the charge off that turn anyway.

YMMV. I've gotten immobilized quite a few times WITH dozerblades on my LRCs. And I can't even count the times I see at least one 1 on my Dozer blade tests.

I'll stick with more rhinos, more tactical squads, and more models on the table this time around. Personal Preference.

I was really hoping for something… else? Crusader squads are fine and the Crusader USR seems like an obvious choice, but there isn’t much that really grabs me. I can’t force myself to complain, because even the buff to challenges is fluffy, but the Black Templars seem to be overshadowed by other Chapter Tactics and certainly better special characters.

I keep trying to come up with a list that utilizes the Templar tactics to the fullest, but it hasn’t gone well. The obvious option is a foot list with Sword Brothers in the Crusader Squads, but we all know the challenges that list will face without any buff to protection.

If anyone has any ideas on how to make a Black Tide list work fairly well, I am all ears!

Use drop pods and vindicators if you want to run crusader squads and retain fluff.

Drop Pod units: Sternguard melta, Dreadnought melta, Command Squad melta...Use them to pop av14 turn 1 and break up your enemy's line and to take the heat off the footslogging Crusader Squads. Even 1 drop pod with a Dread can affect how your opponent deploys and will play psychological games.

Use x2 Vindicators on each flank to advance and provide distraction to your Crusaders. They will draw fire because like drop pods people feel they have to deal with them ASAP and are a high priority target.

Take Grimaldus in the middle of the crusader squads for his 6" bubble of Hatred and Fearless. Servitors can be worth it for the 6++ if you have 3 or 4 squads of maxed Crusaders (30pts to give 60-80 models a 6++ is a good deal).

Alternatively, if you want to go more Mech over Black Tide, you could take Land Raider Crusaders and fill them up with x15 Crusaders and a couple of Character sto buff them up. Then Pod some units in to support.

Something I've been giving some thought to is whether or not to use a CPT w/ Burning Blade and Artificer Armour as the EC. He's more likely to wound, same AP, More wounds and attacks, access to a Command Squad all for 25pts. Granted he doesn't have the "LOL-ID" quality of the Emperor's Champion.

On the Subject of Land Raider Crusader Squads, I've been using that tactic from before 6th. It worked perfectly fine back then, It worked perfectly fine before the new codex and from the look of it, it's still fine now. I concede that Crusader Squads are quite possibly at the weakest that they've ever been these past 2 editions but we haven't lost much.

When we lost Preferred Enemy we got weaker ( I see why though. Can you imagine a Black Tide with Rerolls for EVERYTHING?) Then we got rage. Now we lost that but got more access to PW/special weapons.

Plus with Adamantium Will, we're better at taking Pysker hits too. Or in the very least, negating their effectiveness.

Additionally, Our LRC's lost EA. We can buy it back but it makes us 5pts more expensive.

I don't hold out much hope for Rhino rush because they'll get a free turn of shooting before you get into CQB. I think the best options for us now are either Large scale Drop Pod Assault, LRC hammer or Shooting Black Tide.

 Isean wrote:
Also...I know people like thunder hammers but really think lightning claws. You already re roll hits in challenges. Now you would reroll wounds. I know x2 strength on the hammer is good but anything you challenge is likely not going to get ID by it...so go with the more wound generating weapon. Also...the lower strength is nice because you get a reroll chance to get that rending. If anyone could math hammer LC vs TH against things like MCs and stuff that would be great.

Chance of a hit from a S4 model to wound against T4:
Lightning Claw(3+ armor or worse) - 75%
Lightning Claw(2+ armor) - 12.5%
Lightning Claw(2+ armor, rending) - 33.33%
Thunder Hammer: 83.33%
T5:
LC(3+) - 55.55%
LC(2+) - 9.26%
LC(rend) - 32.41%
TH - 83.33%
T6:
LC(3+) - 30.55%
LC(2+) - 5.02%
LC(rend) - 30.55%
TH - 83.33%
T7:
LC(3+) - 30.55%
LC(2+) - 5.02%
LC(rend) - 30.55%
TH - 66.66%
T8:
LC(3+) - 0%
LC(2+) - 0%
LC(rend) - 30.55%
TH - 50%

There you go. Besides going at initiative, the lightning claw has little advantage over the thunder hammer.

Edit: Wait, forgot rending... *recalculating*

Edit2: Done.

Looks to me that the TH doesn't need a reroll to be as successful. Assuming the challenger hasn't died, the hammer will do more damage every time. Plus AP3 claws is terrible in challenges because anyone who accepts is most likely 2+.

The Thunder Hammer also has the advantage of reducing the enemy to I1 for the next turn of combat. If you're forced to fight something with more than I5 that can come in handy real quick. For example, if you're forced to go up against a Black Mace DP you'll probably not last for 2 rounds of combat, Chapter Master with The Shield or not. By reducing the DP to I1 you at least get to have a shot at punching his brains out and taking him with you, whereas if you had a Lightning Claw he'd just go "Initiative 8, kthxbai!".