Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

After watching a certain show extensively for a day or two now, I got a little curious and realized there may be a bit of an untapped niche in the rules market. Gratuitous tank fights. Say along the lines of World of Tanks. Went around google for awhile, and short of a few very old chit games or the one or two out of print suggestions I could find, there didn't seem to be a whole lot on offer short of "Flames of war/whatever else". And that's hard to count, as games like that it seems the focus is on the whole army, or the infantry, and the tanks tend to be abstracted.

So it just got me wondering, and I thought "I shall make the game I wish to play" and actually try writing some up myself. Because that's worked so well the last few times i'v done this mind

So far the rules focused on tanks (because throwing tanks at each other should never need an excuse), with a good level of focus both on the tank and the crew. I'm thinking a Loader providing the amount of times the tank can shoot a turn, a driver maybe providing the amount of times the tank can turn in its movement. Gunner for shooting accuracy, and a commander for Moral checks, Initiative order (running with an alternating activation idea) and LOS spotting maybe. Bit more to keep track of, but it can open up some interesting and fun avenues, especially for loose campaign play (a tank developing a "odd smell in the radio" maybe to effect command rolls negatively, or "Don't hit me with those negative waves" to give a positive boost, and work as a nice little nod of the head to a certain Oddball).

I'm of two minds right now on whether to use any kind of damage table. At the minute accuracy is a measure of Gunners skill+/- distance modifiers. Maybe others, perhaps make things like tank destroyers and low profile builds like that affect it, plus movement being a modifier too, however I need to work it around so it doesn't become too bloated. If it hits, you take the tanks attack (penetration?) rating+a d6 modifier to see if it beats the other tanks armour. If it does, then damage (YAY!). I'm toying with the idea of trying out a mechanic of hit locations (treads/engine, the gun or the hull maybe) with either a different armour modifier (or leave that out and go with a traditional front/side/rear ratings) or a small D6/D5/D4 damage chart, with either a total number of HP on the tank, as well as each chart getting +1 worse each time it's hit.

Movement will likely be an amount of move points in inches, with turning allowed an X degree's after Y amount of inches forward (depending on the drivers skill). Right now I'm thinking that for "balance" (that ever fleeting cause of arguments), list creation will be Tank Cost+ Crew abilities (say a chart for each with skills:points value)+Traits (as mentioned above, with negative traits freeing up points).

Anyway, whether people think this is a good idea or not, felt like spewing this out anyway, hopefully at the least someone on the internet thought "that isn't a terrible idea" and I don't end up wasting my time with all this

EDIT: The first version of the playtest rules, as well as a blank crew sheet and a test sheet for the playtest rules

Id avoid a gw a +d6 try a different mechanic for that but i do like the idea of the rest of it. Bit like a load of panzer aces agains each other.

Welsh_Furey wrote:
Id avoid a gw a +d6 try a different mechanic for that but i do like the idea of the rest of it. Bit like a load of panzer aces agains each other.

Pretty much what i'm aiming for, while most rulesets include vehicle rules, they usually seem to get abstracted to keep focus on infantry. Just feels like the tank crews never get enough love

Had to think what you were on about then >.< d'oh, that's how the 40k vehicle shooting works. Hmm, it's still something that needs the kinks working out of but I shall give that a bit of work around thought. I'd like to keep some sort of random system like that with another modifier on the end (because the thought of a Type89 managing to 1 in a million knock out a King Tiger amuses the hell out of me).

I'd consider a Roll X keep Y sort of dice mechanic, but honestly i just want to avoid it turning into a bucket of dice (that's my main complaint with things like dystopian wars for instance). Maybe change it to the tanks gun rating being number of dice rolled as a flat level. Type89 with say a gun rating of 1, as opposed to maybe something like the sherman with a rate of 2-3 in dice to give an example.

Deciding to make your own game is never a terrible idea!

Sounds like you have lots of good ideas so far. I'd pose a few questions and ideas myself:

- How big do you see each force being? If you're having multiple, individualized crew per tank do you see the game being a 1 vs 1 duel or large numbers of vehicles per side? I could see too many traits and customization bogging the game down if you get into 10 vs 10 tank games.
- Are you set on D6s? Why not branch out a little and try some different dice. You could go with D10s if you like percentages, or just plain D8s or D12s for more granularity. Or port over the D20 system?! Go wild, live a little!
- There are a lot of neat ideas for hit locations. One I read about was rolling 2 dice, with the lower being location and the higher being the to-hit. A high location hit was something critical, so to hit a GOOD location you needed to roll well on both dice. You could also look at Mech Attack or Renegade Legion or their damage template system (where each weapon applies a unique pattern to the armor) or Silent Death for the gracefully degrading damage track.
- I think rewarding movement would be important in a game like this, since otherwise what motivation does a tank have to leave some trees and shoot at someone? Maybe weaker back armor on tanks, or they are harder to hit when they move, etc.
- You mentioned alternating activations, you could also do a token/card draw for activation (which gets around a lot of the problems with uneven numbers).

So many ideas and possibilities right at the start of design!

 bosky wrote:
Deciding to make your own game is never a terrible idea!

Sounds like you have lots of good ideas so far. I'd pose a few questions and ideas myself:

- How big do you see each force being? If you're having multiple, individualized crew per tank do you see the game being a 1 vs 1 duel or large numbers of vehicles per side? I could see too many traits and customization bogging the game down if you get into 10 vs 10 tank games.
- Are you set on D6s? Why not branch out a little and try some different dice. You could go with D10s if you like percentages, or just plain D8s or D12s for more granularity. Or port over the D20 system?! Go wild, live a little!
- There are a lot of neat ideas for hit locations. One I read about was rolling 2 dice, with the lower being location and the higher being the to-hit. A high location hit was something critical, so to hit a GOOD location you needed to roll well on both dice. You could also look at Mech Attack or Renegade Legion or their damage template system (where each weapon applies a unique pattern to the armor) or Silent Death for the gracefully degrading damage track.
- I think rewarding movement would be important in a game like this, since otherwise what motivation does a tank have to leave some trees and shoot at someone? Maybe weaker back armor on tanks, or they are harder to hit when they move, etc.
- You mentioned alternating activations, you could also do a token/card draw for activation (which gets around a lot of the problems with uneven numbers).

So many ideas and possibilities right at the start of design!

Not a terrible idea, I just have a nasty habit of getting half way through things like this, play testing once or twice and then never thinking about it again

Honestly no where near 10v10. At the most/least i'd say 2-6 a side (and that'd be something like 6 light tanks vs maybe a Mause tank or something). Even 6 would really be pushing it with the amount of let's call it "personality" each crew could end up with having to keep track of.

I initially had D6's down as a placeholder (seeing as they are sort of the "baseline" dice). You can get out with those filthy D20 though joking, but wanting to keep this dice light, D10 or D12 will be the more likely option it ends up in once things get rolling a bit more.

True, if I run with a "modifier+diceroll" to hit, the roll may likely double as a hit location (so say a 1-5 for the hull, a 6-9 for the tracks and a 10-12 for the gun for instance). However the problem with that means most of the time what should be the more common hit location (the hull) is still at the lower end of the spectrum. However flipping that the other way around may work. One particular idea that struck me is rolling a second colour dice with the hit dice, but only apply the randomized hit outside a certain range (so the crew just trying to hit the target on the fly, rather than wasting their time specifically going for the other tanks gun). I'v yet to think too hard on how well an RPG mechanic like called shots closer up would work on tabletop However the "higher dice and lower dice" being what decides would work a lot better than coloured dice. I actually have a copy of Armour Grid, it was a pretty interesting idea for small games like this. Seem to remember mech attack had a table system too, but was a bit vague from what I did read on just how many criticals a mech could take before it finally died. However a grid system is a lot more interesting than a simple "Do at least X damage", and helps somewhat to remove one of the other things from games like Dystopian Wars that bugged me (hamstringing smaller forces arbitarily because of a unlucky roll of a 12 for instance).

I fully intend to have movement effecting your chances to get hit. Though certain tanks like the Stug tank destroyers will likely have a bit more reason to stay hidden, with an equivalent (or better) than if they had moved, but balancing it by a much thinner armour. Right now from the top of my head, I'm toying with the idea of the tanks each having three separate small grids (Say 3X5 for a hull, 3x3 for the treads and turret). Depending on which direction the tank gets hit from, it'll remove one box of armour less. So getting hit on the front with say a damage 3 gun on the front may only result in 1 box loss, where as the rear will take off 3 (taking out the row). This would translate as a +3 on the damage table for instance each time it's hit in that location. The tanks hit box locations will idealy only vary on the depth, the row's "should" match up, so going with the idea of the second hit dice determining location, not only on which part of the tank but on which part of the grid. Opens up further crew abilities for things like + or - 1 to the location roll for a deadeyed gunner. The grid system opens up some routes for different ammo types too (ones with deeper penetration vs ones with a wider spread), maybe having the player have to decide between using up their "valuable" limited shots. Keeping track of ammo use is still a little iffy with me till I get some actual testing done though, on the one hand a skilled gunner could be shooting 3 rounds a turn (if I keep that idea). Would certainly add a little in terms of "Do I try to shoot from back here, or get closer. It'd help me to hit, but I could get scrapped".

doc1234 wrote:Not a terrible idea, I just have a nasty habit of getting half way through things like this, play testing once or twice and then never thinking about it again

Haha I know that feeling. Just gotta get an early playable prototype and then get your friends hooked on it so you're always motivated to play.

doc1234 wrote:Honestly no where near 10v10. At the most/least i'd say 2-6 a side (and that'd be something like 6 light tanks vs maybe a Mause tank or something). Even 6 would really be pushing it with the amount of let's call it "personality" each crew could end up with having to keep track of.

Yeah for skirmish games I find 6 to be the perfect number (then again that's what my own game has as a cap per gang ). You can have plenty of detail per vehicle without the player being overwhelmed by TOO much RPG-like detail. Once you're in the 10-20 range you might as well play a full army game since each model is probably pretty bland already.

doc1234 wrote:I initially had D6's down as a placeholder (seeing as they are sort of the "baseline" dice). You can get out with those filthy D20 though joking, but wanting to keep this dice light, D10 or D12 will be the more likely option it ends up in once things get rolling a bit more.

Right there with you for D20s I just was suggesting it in case you forgot all the dice Never seen the appeal of D10s either, they aren't even Platonic solids. I'm a D12 fan myself!

doc1234 wrote:True, if I run with a "modifier+diceroll" to hit, the roll may likely double as a hit location (so say a 1-5 for the hull, a 6-9 for the tracks and a 10-12 for the gun for instance). However the problem with that means most of the time what should be the more common hit location (the hull) is still at the lower end of the spectrum. However flipping that the other way around may work.

I was more saying 2 dice are rolled, but they aren't added together. So 2D6 with a 4 and a 6. The higher result (6) is always the to-hit roll, the lower (4) is always the location. So to get a really good hit on a good location they'd have to roll very well, like two sixes. The locations are still independent and unaffected by the 2D6 bell curve since you're only checking 1D6.

doc1234 wrote:One particular idea that struck me is rolling a second colour dice with the hit dice, but only apply the randomized hit outside a certain range (so the crew just trying to hit the target on the fly, rather than wasting their time specifically going for the other tanks gun). I'v yet to think too hard on how well an RPG mechanic like called shots closer up would work on tabletop However the "higher dice and lower dice" being what decides would work a lot better than coloured dice.

You could get even more granular and have 3D6 (or whatever dice), with stats varying based on the tank. So one tank might have:
Damage: High
To-Hit: Medium
Location: Low

So it would rarely hit good locations, but would hit for a lot of damage when it did. That type of system works a bit better with non-D6 dice though.

doc1234 wrote:I actually have a copy of Armour Grid, it was a pretty interesting idea for small games like this. Seem to remember mech attack had a table system too, but was a bit vague from what I did read on just how many criticals a mech could take before it finally died. However a grid system is a lot more interesting than a simple "Do at least X damage", and helps somewhat to remove one of the other things from games like Dystopian Wars that bugged me (hamstringing smaller forces arbitarily because of a unlucky roll of a 12 for instance).

I think I remember you replying to my "What other games beside BTech" thread about Mech Attack. But yeah the grid system was cool, and I'm sure you could rework it to have a critical system you liked a bit more.

doc1234 wrote:I fully intend to have movement effecting your chances to get hit. Though certain tanks like the Stug tank destroyers will likely have a bit more reason to stay hidden, with an equivalent (or better) than if they had moved, but balancing it by a much thinner armour. Right now from the top of my head, I'm toying with the idea of the tanks each having three separate small grids (Say 3X5 for a hull, 3x3 for the treads and turret). Depending on which direction the tank gets hit from, it'll remove one box of armour less. So getting hit on the front with say a damage 3 gun on the front may only result in 1 box loss, where as the rear will take off 3 (taking out the row). This would translate as a +3 on the damage table for instance each time it's hit in that location. The tanks hit box locations will idealy only vary on the depth, the row's "should" match up, so going with the idea of the second hit dice determining location, not only on which part of the tank but on which part of the grid. Opens up further crew abilities for things like + or - 1 to the location roll for a deadeyed gunner. The grid system opens up some routes for different ammo types too (ones with deeper penetration vs ones with a wider spread), maybe having the player have to decide between using up their "valuable" limited shots. Keeping track of ammo use is still a little iffy with me till I get some actual testing done though, on the one hand a skilled gunner could be shooting 3 rounds a turn (if I keep that idea). Would certainly add a little in terms of "Do I try to shoot from back here, or get closer. It'd help me to hit, but I could get scrapped".

You might have lost me here, but I do think direction dependent damage is important in vehicle games What about instead of separate grids each tank has a single grid of boxes (say 6x7). Then if they are hit from the left you spin the sheet and fill in the damage pattern from the left side instead of the front (or "top"). So you could start digging holes all over the tank.

Crew members could just have basic stats and then additional traits or abilities that let them do cool things above and beyond the norm. You could even have crew death/unconsciousness being a big factor where members have to "switch seats" to take over loading, and they might not be as familiar with it. Sort of like a cheesy Star Trek movie where someone has to run to engineering instead of the actual engineers.

 bosky wrote:
snip

Heh well I play a lot of D% Rpg's, so the D10 ain't so bad

I got that the D6 weren't added together, I went up to 12 because I was still thinking about D12 for it in my head

Shall likely keep the To Hit as the Gunner's job, however using several different dice types could be an idea. So a basic Gunner may only be hitting with a D6 (with let's say 4+ success), however a better gunner would be 4+ on a D10. Same with the Tanks, it may be able to hit fairly accurately and let the gunner pick out better areas to hit (D10/12) but only hit on a D4/6 maybe.

I did recommend it actually heh, I got in a test game or two of armour grid when I picked it up, but that was many games ago now

Bit of verbal diarrhea at the end so to speak there. By separate grids I meant something a little like this:


So the Turret having a smaller hit box in terms of armour, but being harder to hit (and not actually killing the tank, just affecting and eventually removing its shooting ability). Where as the hull and treads would have be much easier to hit, but be able to take more damage.

A top down view of the armour would maybe be something like this.


Be a bit harder to show the front hull VS the turret, but opens up the opportunity to include the Facing armour by representing it on the table (maybe modifying what the damage roll needs to penetrate). So a High power tank may get to attack on a D10, if its shooting the front of the other tank its only damaging on a 6/7+, or a 5+ on the side, or a 3+ on the rear if this makes a little more sense this time

I said originally with the idea of different traits that some of them would apply to the crew (Sargent Oddball and his positive waves man). I'm a little iffy on the idea of the crew being taken out (at least this early in planning this). However either a separate Crew table, or including them on the main tables would work (Oh no, your tank commander was up out of the hatch when the turret got hit. He's fine, but knocked out for the next X turns/ busy crapping himself). The effects of which maybe lowering the skill level (radio operator fumbling with the controls to try and drive for instance) or outright removing the option for a time (the loaders down, so the gunner's having to jump between seats loading and shooting).

I think I had something else to put but my brains gone blank, got distracted it'l come to me if it was important xD

Interesting ideas. I don't know what they are, but I think there are still some detailed tank v tank rules out there if you want to glean some ideas from other rulesets.

The one I thought of was "Tractics" but it's currently OOP. It has charts for everything, and lots of detail. I've only played it once, but it sounds like the kind of rules you're looking for.

One mechanic it had, that you really should consider is whether the tank is "buttoned up" and has all hatches closed, or unbuttoned where the Tanks Commander (TC) has his head out of the coupla.

In WW2 (and even until modern times in most vehicles) riding unbuttoned provides a huge boost to the TC's visibility and thus to the overall effectiveness of movement and shooting. Of course it also makes the TC more vulnerable to bullets, shrapnel, etc, and if you loose your TC, everything gets alot more difficult.

Suffice to say, a realistic tank game has alot more to contend with than simply a damage grid, but it can be done.

Here's a game you might want to look at for ideas.
http://www.brittonpublishers.com/Overview.html

D10s not bad?! Heathen!

Different dice per gunner reminds me of a little vehicular destruction game called Outrider. You basically "built" your car by assigning different dice sizes to the different systems. Although it can be a bit higher barrier to entry (my friends tell me there are still people out there without 5 pounds of dice...) but it's also a very fluid and fun approach.

Your grid approach makes more sense, and was sort of what I was saying with the single 6x7 grid. I thought you meant individual, disconnected damage tracks for each side that didn't relate to each other. Seems like a neat idea though.

If you're doing scaling dice for the Gunner I think keeping that theme throughout would be nice. Either that or just shake it up entirely and do a dice pool for shooting

Crew could definitely be a unique feature, sort of like how managing them is critical in a video game like Faster Than Light. And yeah if you don't want them killed then being incapacitated by fear or knocked out or whatever could work too. I just like the idea of people in the cramped quarters desperately trying to reload the gun to get one last shot in as fires rage all around them and two of their friends are slumped over the controls.

@Eilif: I like the idea of hatches open/shut having an impact. Sort of like going into attack/defense mode. Always nice to give players more options and choices and reward them based on sound tactical decisions.

 Eilif wrote:
Interesting ideas. I don't know what they are, but I think there are still some detailed tank v tank rules out there if you want to glean some ideas from other rulesets.

The one I thought of was "Tractics" but it's currently OOP. It has charts for everything, and lots of detail. I've only played it once, but it sounds like the kind of rules you're looking for.

One mechanic it had, that you really should consider is whether the tank is "buttoned up" and has all hatches closed, or unbuttoned where the Tanks Commander (TC) has his head out of the coupla.

In WW2 (and even until modern times in most vehicles) riding unbuttoned provides a huge boost to the TC's visibility and thus to the overall effectiveness of movement and shooting. Of course it also makes the TC more vulnerable to bullets, shrapnel, etc, and if you loose your TC, everything gets alot more difficult.

Suffice to say, a realistic tank game has alot more to contend with than simply a damage grid, but it can be done.

Here's a game you might want to look at for ideas.
http://www.brittonpublishers.com/Overview.html

Tractics was one of the ones I saw mentioned around google, but a little hard to get a look over given the OOP nature.

I had been thinking of toying with this option, perhaps using some kind of AP system where the TC also gives additional (So say 1AP base, but the option of a 2nd AP that can be spent on certain actions like spotting maybe). The other option being do away with AP, go with a "pick one" between things like "move", "Move and fire" "fire" etc and if the tank commander is effected somehow flat out remove several options. Buttoning up was one of the things i have noted for possibilities, but i never got much further with it that the idea of it. However one option could maybe having him out in the open (maybe allowing a better commander to help range find for a lower abilitied tank crew, and use his crew's range modifier if they're closer for instance), but having him out in the open would perhaps force the tank to roll at a lower speed (and thus be easier to hit). The other option being to button him up inside, but have him more preoccupied directing his own crew round. Could open up some areas for tank synergy rather than just spamming the board/stating up the biggest beatstick you can like a Mause and trying to prove how clever you are. Hell I still need to sort out what numbers do what, so while i'm throwing around the word "modifier" like no tomorrow, having him out could help with the tank going through terrain like deep bogs, and allow the gunner to manipulate their aim a bit easier.

I'll agree it takes more that a fancy damage grid, but a fancy damage grid is still better than "roll above this number to make tank go boom" for what's meant to be a tank centric game Idealy by the end i'd like to include a good bit of tank detail and even head nods. Encouraging tank destroyers to hide it out, till the need to flee and change position. More maneuverable tanks perhaps having to tow their less wieldy cousins through terrain.

Thanks for the link, shall give it a look through!

 bosky wrote:
D10s not bad?! Heathen!

Different dice per gunner reminds me of a little vehicular destruction game called Outrider. You basically "built" your car by assigning different dice sizes to the different systems. Although it can be a bit higher barrier to entry (my friends tell me there are still people out there without 5 pounds of dice...) but it's also a very fluid and fun approach.

Your grid approach makes more sense, and was sort of what I was saying with the single 6x7 grid. I thought you meant individual, disconnected damage tracks for each side that didn't relate to each other. Seems like a neat idea though.

If you're doing scaling dice for the Gunner I think keeping that theme throughout would be nice. Either that or just shake it up entirely and do a dice pool for shooting

Crew could definitely be a unique feature, sort of like how managing them is critical in a video game like Faster Than Light. And yeah if you don't want them killed then being incapacitated by fear or knocked out or whatever could work too. I just like the idea of people in the cramped quarters desperately trying to reload the gun to get one last shot in as fires rage all around them and two of their friends are slumped over the controls.

@Eilif: I like the idea of hatches open/shut having an impact. Sort of like going into attack/defense mode. Always nice to give players more options and choices and reward them based on sound tactical decisions.

Heh everyone gets dice, and there's no such thing as too many

Don't always explain myself, however thinking on it the top down view has its merits (a player trying to keep the enemy on his tanks right due to the near crippled left side). I used the gunner as an example following on from the hit/damage talk. Same would be for the commander on scaling dice as the only one who would really need them (loader giving a direct number of shots, and driver having a set amount of turns per inches).

Not against crew outright dying, it's more of a "Still trying to wrangle everything else into a state thats even worth testing" thing. Have Faster than Light, and I loved the crew mechanics for it (thus the gunner having to clamber over the supposedly amazing but dead loader, lowering the shots per turn from 3 to 1 every other turn as he scrambles back to his own seat).

EDIT: Including the rules as they are so far in the OP. It's 1am, so i'v likely forgotten to add a lot

Having the tank commander out in the open should not slow the tank. In fact quite the opposite, it makes the tank able to safely move faster and maneuver more effectively because of the increased visibility.

The tradeoff is that he's easier to hit and everything works slower and less organized if you use your TC.

Tanks like the sherman and the Tiger had a crew of 5. usually distributed something like:
TC
driver
co-driver and/or radioman
loader
gunner

Minus the TC, you lose much of that synergy as you no longer have the leader of the tank organizing the actions of it's crew.

Not sure how detailed you want to get with the crew, but each casualty in a crew would affect the abilities of the tank. The trick is knowing enough about tanks ( I certainly don't) to know what kind of damage to the tank would have the potential to damage which crewmember(s).

 Eilif wrote:
Having the tank commander out in the open should not slow the tank. In fact quite the opposite, it makes the tank able to safely move faster and maneuver more effectively because of the increased visibility.

The tradeoff is that he's easier to hit and everything works slower and less organized if you use your TC.

Tanks like the sherman and the Tiger had a crew of 5. usually distributed something like:
TC
driver
co-driver and/or radioman
loader
gunner

Minus the TC, you lose much of that synergy as you no longer have the leader of the tank organizing the actions of it's crew.

Not sure how detailed you want to get with the crew, but each casualty in a crew would affect the abilities of the tank. The trick is knowing enough about tanks ( I certainly don't) to know what kind of damage to the tank would have the potential to damage which crewmember(s).

Thats what i'm hoping to learn as im making this, much research ahead of me. Ent le el of accuracy
I'm aiming for a decent level of accuracy, or at the least give a better representation of the tanks.
Enforcing a choice on a co-driver or radioman could be an interesting option. Radioman perhaps effecting te distance that the TC can effect another tank witb an ability (if at all). The co-driver on the otherhand having a secondary (though lower, else hed be the driver) manouver skill. This covers tbe crew if the driver gets taken out, and keeping tbem optional could push on a bit with the quick shuffling of the crew idea.

Looking over the rules now.

When you say "move X inches before a turn" I see you are envisioning the turns being up to 45 degrees. Do you think this would be achieved with some kind of turning key like Firestorm Armada or Car Wars? Or are people just going to kind of angle the tank how they want? Protractor perhaps?

I like the idea of "Change Gear" being an action, and tanks going a set speed until they are stopped.

From the Shell Rating it looks like that dice can change too, or is it always a D10? Not sure if I'm sold on the "roll X+ to hit, roll X+ to damage the location you hit". Do you envision the shooter choosing which specific box is hit? Like if they attack from the right they could choose Treads or Hull?

If you wanted a bit more variable damage you could have each Shell Rating be XD6, and keep the X+. But the shooter could allocate their D6s to numerous boxes on the side. That would get around the "1 shot 1 damage" approach which might start to feel like a roll off?

Also what era do you visualize the game being set? World War 2?

 bosky wrote:
Looking over the rules now.

When you say "move X inches before a turn" I see you are envisioning the turns being up to 45 degrees. Do you think this would be achieved with some kind of turning key like Firestorm Armada or Car Wars? Or are people just going to kind of angle the tank how they want? Protractor perhaps?

I like the idea of "Change Gear" being an action, and tanks going a set speed until they are stopped.

From the Shell Rating it looks like that dice can change too, or is it always a D10? Not sure if I'm sold on the "roll X+ to hit, roll X+ to damage the location you hit". Do you envision the shooter choosing which specific box is hit? Like if they attack from the right they could choose Treads or Hull?

If you wanted a bit more variable damage you could have each Shell Rating be XD6, and keep the X+. But the shooter could allocate their D6s to numerous boxes on the side. That would get around the "1 shot 1 damage" approach which might start to feel like a roll off?

Wouldn't mind a turning key, will likely even try to be a bit clever and include it as part of the tank cards when/if I get round to making a mock up of one. Changing gears will again help to manage how hard it is to shoot when going at those speeds, but encourage a bit of "Crap, I at full speed...and there's a cliff 2 inches in front of me." May add some kind of "driving skill" to the driver too, or a stress test of some kind for doing an emergancy break (perhaps with a risk of flipping the tank or the treads coming off).

The "shell rating" was just what I was calling the Attack value on the tank. It'l change in the same was as the drivers skills. So a Matilda 2 may only be hitting with a D6, but if a King tiger needs to take a 8+ on the front to hurt it the Matilda hasn't got a snowballs chance and will need to play it a bit smarter

That's the thing right now, i'm leaning towards the top down down view of the tank grid simply as it handily includes the tanks facings. However it's all a bit stacked together. Having a separate Turret grid wouldn't take up too much more room however. I'll agree the shooting steps feel a tad off right now. In theory it'd be XD6/10/whatever anyway because of the gun loader. So say a Level 3 loader would get the gunner 3D10 shots, and if they all hit would result in 3D10 damage rolls. Put simply the amount of shells fired and dice rolled are dependent on the Loaders skill.

The problem with choosing where to allocate on the grid right now is a bit double edged. Either it's small enough to roll for which column to hit on, but the grids small enough that it can only take a turn or two of shots. Alternatively may the grids wider and deeper, but run the risk of player's cherry picking the shots in a neat row straight to the center engine/crew/whatever the middle part ends up as.

As for picking between choosing where to hit anyway between zones, I'd like to either do a "aimed shot" action and give it a slightly tougher chance to hit, but allow the shooter to pick where they hit, or work it in like an RPG critical hit mechanic. Say a roll of a natural 10/6 or whatever allows the player to pick a hull/tread area to hit on.

I want/should probably add in a separate action for turret facing direction too (tank goes one way, turrets firing to the left but maybe can't wheel around in time to shoot the enemy to the right).

EDIT: As for era, i'm working with WW2 at the minute because they're cheap and easily available kits they I can play and test with, however once it's up and running it shouldn't be too difficult to translate it over to modern tanks or even sci-fi ones.

When you get some idea of the rules pm me i would love to playtest them for you.

I'd be in for playtesting as well. I think I have two (maybe even three!) tanks from Axis & Allies Miniatures that I could use.

Now I'll just have to keep bugging you off and on so you get further through the rules than halfway

Ok the first playtest version is up on the first post. There's no Traits or values as yet, want to get things resembling "working" before i mess with it too much. Theres a simple tank and crew up as well, but feel free to mess with different crew and tank levels to see how they work. The damage tables will get fleshed out at some point too when i next update it. If you get 5 to have a playtest, please let me know how it goes. With lots of red letters and strong wording if needed

A bit of independent parallel development here.

I was working on a game exactly based on this idea, for a non-serious, world of tanks style tank miniature game. Just grab your tanks and start playing.

I also went through the same thought processes, and had many systems like you've been describing, right down to things like a damage grid, to action points and such.

It's actually a more difficult game to do than the initial idea seems since you still want to have fast, interesting, and fun tank tactics, balancing that with realism is difficult. I had to shelve it to focus on my primary game project.

Will download and see if I can add anything to your rules.

 doc1234 wrote:
Ok the first playtest version is up on the first post. There's no Traits or values as yet, want to get things resembling "working" before i mess with it too much. Theres a simple tank and crew up as well, but feel free to mess with different crew and tank levels to see how they work. The damage tables will get fleshed out at some point too when i next update it. If you get 5 to have a playtest, please let me know how it goes. With lots of red letters and strong wording if needed

In the interest of making the playtest as blindingly easy as possible for me, do you have two tanks prebuilt (with crew) that I can just print and try?

 bosky wrote:

 doc1234 wrote:
Ok the first playtest version is up on the first post. There's no Traits or values as yet, want to get things resembling "working" before i mess with it too much. Theres a simple tank and crew up as well, but feel free to mess with different crew and tank levels to see how they work. The damage tables will get fleshed out at some point too when i next update it. If you get 5 to have a playtest, please let me know how it goes. With lots of red letters and strong wording if needed

In the interest of making the playtest as blindingly easy as possible for me, do you have two tanks prebuilt (with crew) that I can just print and try?

Read down towards the bottom, theres the sample tank loadout from futher up cleaned up (just no "card" atm). The crew layouts just under it with rookie values listed, but feel free to swap and change things around.

In theory iv tried keeping the values close enough that a "rookie" crew could still get lucky and take out an elite one, the ratings are more "nice bonus" than a rat fighting a dragon so to speak (the exception being the tank guns VS the armour).

(Which means I will eventually get around to uploading a makeshift card file at some point. just bare with my as i bravely do battle with the flu without the aid of a tank )

Oh my mistake, I must have a slightly older version of the rules since I think you uploaded them once and then again for the playtest. I'll redownload and hopefully give it a shot this weekend!

It's the last part before the random notes. Shall try and get a blank tank card draft uploaded later this evening.

Edit: Ok some very basic crew sheets are up