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I plan on running Shrike with a 5 man unit of Vanguard Veterans but I am having a hard time trying to decide how to equip them. I know I want to sprinkle in a few TH/SS combinations in there but I am unsure how to kit out the rest. Any advice?

Get 10 men.

All they need is meltabombs.

They have more than enough attacks to handle most infantry, and Shrike does the heavy hitting with the AP3 attacks. The only things they really can't handle with their basic bp&ccw are GKs and monstrous creatures.

Meltabombs will allow them to kill monstrous creatures. Str8, AP1 attacks that usually hit on 3s will pull down an MC in a phase or two. You'll lose a few vanguards to unwieldy, but you'll win anyway.

There is no way to efficiently equip any space marine jump troop to handle GKs in assault, so just give up on that. Even if you bought them all storm shields, you'd be spending so many points that the GKs would just laugh and kill the measly rest of your army while you're trying to make 3++ saves against their power weapons. Spend those points instead on something that can kill GKs with shooting, and then avoid them with your vanguard.

Know what deals with GK well? Honor Guard.

Oh you can only take swords or hammers in GK? Too bad, I'm 2+ with 4 power weapon attacks on the charge.

GK? Get the grav guns

We don't have any Grey Knight players in my group. I face mostly Tau and Chaos allied with Daemons. So melta Bombs are essentially 1 use power fists?

Yeah, basically. I don't prefer any kind of HTH with MCs, however. I like to shoot them.

HTH with a MC is suicide with anything less than a SS.

Dustin V wrote:
We don't have any Grey Knight players in my group. I face mostly Tau and Chaos allied with Daemons. So melta Bombs are essentially 1 use power fists?

You do not expend melta bombs

Meltabombs are in the grenade section of the rulebook. It's an anti-vehicle weapon that you use in assault. You can only make one attack with it, but the attack is str8, AP1, at I1. You can use them any number of times during the game (not one use) and in addition to vehicles, you can also use them against monstrous creatures.

It is preferable to kill Riptides, daemon princes and Wraithknights with shooting, especially grav guns, but that wasn't the question.

Vanguard vets--especially infiltrating with Shrike--are going to be up at the front of the fight by turn 2 (or turn 1 if you go second), blowing up wave serpents, killing weedy elves and ripping up pathfinders. So your opponent is very likely to send his wraithknight or DP into assault to get you. So meltabombs not only allow you to blow up wave serpents more effectively, but also allow you to stand a chance of winning against those MCs when they get into combat, or at least putting a lot of wounds on them.

Against Tau, even a unit of 5 vanguards with meltabombs can pretty surely take down a riptide in close combat in about 2 combat phases. They'll lose 1-3 guys (which is a good reason to take 8-10 instead of 5 in your unit), but they will kill it.

Without meltabombs, vanguard vets are toast against wraithknights and flying DPs who assault them.

So you can spend 60-80 points on a couple of storm shields and a couple of thunder hammers that might preserve some of your guys for a few more turns if you can make a 3++ save, and that will net you 4-6 extra str8, AP1 attacks if those guys survive.

Or, you can spend 25 points to give every single guy in the unit a str8, AP1 attack against MCs, and spend the leftover points on more guys as ablative wounds instead of having to roll 3++ saves.

They're all going to get toasted when the heldrake comes in anyway, so might as well keep them cheap.

I'm assuming you're talking about jump pack vanguards here, right? Because it's cheaper to buy every vanguard guy a jump pack than it is to buy a transport.

Wait? You can charge if you go 2nd after infiltrating? I thought that rule was only allowed for Scout moves...

Thanks for the detailed response Flavius. Yeah I am talking Vanguard with Jump Packs. So 10 is the ideal number to run with them. And it seems like the best way to kit them out is with pistol and chain sword and melta bombs, maybe sprinkle a few guys in there with TH/SS?

Also, I am not as familiar as I'd like to be with Grenade rules but isn't only 1 grenade per turn can be used from the same squad? Or is that different in melee?

That's throwing them in the shooting phase.

Be warned, if you take jump packs you won't be able to scout on the first turn.

Jump packs make a unit bulky. Bulky units cannot scout from Ravenguard.

Shrike still can inflitrate them.

I'd go with a few power axes, a few meltabombs, and a few storm shields to keep them cheap. Funnel the AP2 and AP3 close combat attacks through the storm shields, and use the axes and Shrike to actually win your fights. The meltabomb guys are pretty much mooks to get gunned down and a contingency for high toughness targets and walkers.

Vanguard with meltabomb is quite an expensive mook.

He's cheaper than one with a storm shield or a power axe.

Well, that's true. I have a converted Shrike model. I'll look into using Vanguards instead of ASM.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
I'd go with a few power axes, a few meltabombs, and a few storm shields to keep them cheap. Funnel the AP2 and AP3 close combat attacks through the storm shields, and use the axes and Shrike to actually win your fights. The meltabomb guys are pretty much mooks to get gunned down and a contingency for high toughness targets and walkers.

IMO this actually dilutes the power of massed meltabombs.

The squad is already expensive. Once you start throwing in hammers, axes and storm shields, it gets really pricey really fast.

Two axes, two storm shields and two meltabombs costs 60 points. Ten meltabombs costs 50 points.

Two axes, two storm shields and two meltabombs against a wraithknight gives you a bunch of attacks that can't do anything at I4, 2 attacks that wound the wraithknight on 4's, and 6/8 attacks that wound the wraithknight on 6s. Against a riptide or deamon prince, you get 2 attacks that wound on 2s, and 6/8 attacks that wound on 5s.

Ten meltabombs gives you ten attacks that wound the wraithknight on 4's and bypass his save--minus whatever he killed at his initiative. Against a riptide or nurgle prince, you get ten attacks that wound on 2's (minus casualties).

The most effective offense you can get against monstrous creatures in assault is meltabombs. It's also the cheapest. If I had 10 or 20 points extra in my list, I'd consider buying a couple of stormshieilds. But vanguard don't need axes against anything except MCs, where meltabombs are better.

Minus the cost of Shrike, about how many landraiders is this going to cost me out of my list? 10 vanguards with meltabombs that is.

One landraider with extra armor and multi-melta approx.

A unit of 8 Vanguard vets with meltabombs might also be feasible in terms of hitting power while still fitting into smaller armies in the 1500 point range.

Except you can't infiltrate with Shrike.

An IC can only join a unit by being placed on the table and in coherency with a unit, or being joined to a unit already being held in reserve.

Shrike's rule says, before deployment, he may only join Jump Infantry. So he can only join VV or ASM being held in reserve, either to come on the table edge or deep striking in.

General Hobbs wrote:


Except you can't infiltrate with Shrike.

An IC can only join a unit by being placed on the table and in coherency with a unit, or being joined to a unit already being held in reserve.

Shrike's rule says, before deployment, he may only join Jump Infantry. So he can only join VV or ASM being held in reserve, either to come on the table edge or deep striking in.

I hope GW FAQ's this. If Shrike can't join a unit and Infiltrate them in, that would be very lame. Ideally, the FAQ will finally put the lie to the idea that Infiltrating IC's cannot bring a unit with them, because I don't think the RAW is nearly as cut-and-dried as people seem to claim.

Specifically: If Shrike CANNOT infiltrate a unit forward with him, why would they specify that he can only join jump infantry before the game starts? That doesn't make any sense at all. Clearly, they intend for him, at least, to be able to sneak up with a unit of jumpers. Maybe this will still mean that other Infiltrating IC's cannot do this, but that is probably also wrong.

I agree with the intention, but not with the result as to how they worded it.

So basically Shrike can't deep strike with a unit of terminators...that is the only result of the wording of the rule.

Shrike had a similar issue in the wording of the 5th edition rules. All the times I played Shrike, nobody ever gave me a hard time infiltrating him with a unit that didn't otherwise have the rule. The intention is pretty clear.

I had 2 people in tournaments and a TO in a third tell me I could not infiltrate Shrike.

General Hobbs wrote:

I had 2 people in tournaments and a TO in a third tell me I could not infiltrate Shrike.

Ive never seen the problem with this and i don't know why people are so nitpicky about it. There are some characters who are obviously designed rules and fluff-wise (i know it isnt pertinent but i feel it has some bearing on the designers when they write the character) to infiltrate, and to infiltrate with some buddies. Shrike is obviously an awesomely stealthy guy with a huge rocket on his back, and his rules say he can only be with other jumpy guys, so WHY would he ever be able to infiltrate if he could not infiltrate with the only units he can group with? For his point cost and his abilities shrikes only real purpose to be an insertion vehicle for assault squads and vanguard. Logically that is the connection I make, and no one ever seems to complain, and I will not complain when i encounter a Raven Guard player who wishes to infiltrate shrike.

Also, keep in mind that people in tournaments tend to love childish and un-fun Rules as Written things like putting LOS terrain in front of your aegis and other equally silly rules, hence why I only enjoy friendly games.