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Lots of threads at the moment attempting to address tournament points levels (one already started by me!!) and round time. I thought this would be a good experiment to find out what points level in 6ed gets you the same amount of models on the table as a 5ed list.

- Dig out a Competitive 1850pt list from your 5ed Eldar/Tau/Marines/Daemons/CSM/DA codex
- Build the SAME list using your new 6ed codex.
- Tell us how many points it came to

I don't actually have any 1850pt competitive lists lying around from 5ed, so I stole one from the interwebs!

LIST (5ed)


5ed - 1849 points
6ed - 1768 points (as accurate as I can make it)

So, my 1850 list would have another 100 points of models in it, just from the edition change.

Cheaper units means more models sold...

My 5th edition Eldar list was just shy of 200 points cheaper. AND THERE WERE ONLY TWO WAVE SERPENTS IN IT!

My old marine sternguard list at 1725 (used to flesh it out with power weapon or melta bombs etc) is now 1760, 35 pts increase. Few things to note, I now dont have to take squads of 10 tac marines to get a drop pod, so I have a little more flexability there, the librarian is cheaper, but I cannot now chose his powers, lose vortex and null zone.

I now cannot put vulkan or librarian in a drop pod which is a big difference, I now have to either put them in with the tac marines and reduce their size, which reduces my scoring as I now cannot combat squad, or reduce the size of the sternguard but that would mean they all have to shoot at the same target, the beauty of my old list was being able to choose the best targets for the use of the combi weapons. I did love my twin linked flamer squad!.


It was basically

Vulkan
Libby

10 sternguard, pod, 8 combi flamers, 2 heavy flamers
10 sternguard, pod, 8 combi plasma, 2 plasma guns
10 sternguard, pod, 8 combi meltas, 2 melta guns

10 tacs, flamer MM pod
10 tacs, flamer MM pod


I loved that army to be honest, it wasnt the most competitive and can easily be countered, just loved putting down that many flamer templates I guess, lol.

I dug out an Eldar list I ran under 5th edition for an 1850 tournament. Duplicating it with the new codex costs 97 points more. The Avatar, Fire Dragons, and Wraithlords all went up in cost.

Neat experiment. I look forward to everyone's results.

I play orks... so yeah, 4th edition codex says "Hi!"

Same here.

You don't have an option in the poll for no change, btw.

No codex change , ergo no points change ...

My 5th edition 1500 point space marine list went up ~65-75 points.

TH/SS termies, sternguard and attack bikes all went up.

I play dark angels, so the difference was enormous.

Every unit selected was cheaper.

I could compare 4th ed guard to 5th ed guard, but I might as well compare two different armies. 5th ed guard look nothing like the previous editions.

My issue with this poll is that to duplicate a 5th edition wave serpent in 6th is now impossible, as the new wave serpent shoots a serpent shield that would have cost a FORTUNE if it was included in the old eldar codex.

Look at tau as well, how many points would you need to pay to get 24 missile pod shots that a broadside team with drones put out? In the old book you could get a 2 shot missile pod on a suit for about 40 points, now for 12 points you can get missile drone. Sure the profile is different, but the shooting quality of tau and eldar are of such superior quality that its absurdly hard to calculate what an equivalent 5th Ed cost would be.

Finally, to contribute to the op, my main army of 5th was deathwing. Discounting the gain from rules that dont help my old force much like split fire in a unit with 1 ranged weapon, each unit went from about 240 with a cyclone and thss to about 275, plus Belial got a bit pricier too. All in all, I pay 170 MORE in 6th to field my old force, and I lost a lot of unique abilities that made the army work, like a total reserve deployment of all my forces. All I got was no scatter on Belial, but bikes already get scouting homers so its not much of a boon.

5th ed eldar list

Farseer - 138
Singing Spear, Runes of Warding, Spirit Stones, Doom, Guide

Autarch - 125
Fusion gun, power weapon, mandiblasters, warp jump generator

Fire Dragons x 6 - 121
Exarch – Firepike, Crack Shot

10 Guardians - 131
Scatter Laser, Warlock – Embolden, Spirit Seer

10 Storm Guardians - 265
2 x fusion guns, Warlock – Singing Spear, Destructor
Wave Serpent – TL Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones

10 Dire Avengers - 307
Exarch – Twin catapults, Bladestorm
Wave Serpent – TL Bright Lance, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones

Wraithlord – 155
Bright Lance, EML, 2 flamers

Falcon - 165
Bright Lance, Pulse Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones

7 Warp Spiders - 196
Exarch – Twin death spinners, power blades, Withdraw

6 Warp Spiders - 174
Exarch – Twin death spinners, power blades, Withdraw

5 Dark Reapers - 217
Exarch – EML, Fast Shot

Total - 1994pts

6th ed eldar list

Farseer - singing spear, spirit stone of anath'lan - 120

Autarch - Fusion gun, power sword, mandiblasters, warp jump generator - 115 (I think not got codex with me)

6 Fire Dragons - 172
Exarch, Firepike, Fast Shot, Iron Resolve

10 Guardians - 145
Scatter laser, Warlock

10 Storm Guardians - 145
2 fusion guns - warlock
Wave serpent - tl scatter lasers, shuriken cannon, holofield - 145

10 Dire Avengers - 165
Exarch - twin catapults, disarming strike, shield of grace
Wave serpent - TL Bright lance, shuriken cannon, holofields - 145

Wraithlord - 175
2 x bright lances, 2 x flamers, ghost glaive

Falcon - 175
Bright lance, pulse laser, shuriken cannon, holofield, spirit stones

7 Warp spiders - 178
Exarch - spinneret rifle, fast shot, marksmans eye

6 Warp spiders - 159
Exarch - spinneret rifle, fast shot, marksmans eye

5 Dark Reapers - 215
Exarch - reaper launcher, starshot missiles, night vision, fast shot, star shot missiles (squad)

This list as a whole got 60pts more expensive but imo all the units in it got better with bladestorm, battle focus, monofilament weapons, dual lances for the wraithlord, holofields for the tanks and of course army wide BS4 plus starshot missiles for the dark reapers squad to give them a decent shot against tanks.

To get the list back under 2000pts I would likely drop upgrades from units such as marksmans eye from the spider exarchs and iron resolve from the fire dragons.

The autarch may also get dropped as he was only there before to give one warp spider squad a bit of extra bite and to help with reserve rolls.

With the sheer speed of spiders now I probably won't reserve them and they don't need the bite with monofilament weapons being AP1 on 6's to wound and the improvement to the spinneret rifle.

You can't really.compare the old necron book to the new one. It's pretty much an entirely new army.

So for Daemons (using the WD update for the old dex)

Fateweaver
Masque

2 x 6 Plague Bearers
1 x 5 Horrors

3 x 9 Flamers
3x 9 Screamers

1994

In the new book you save 25 points on the Masque, 33 of Fateweaver, the 6 man Plague bearer units go to 10 for the same points (cannot take 5 man units anymore) and the Horrors gain 5 models for 5 additional points. Flamers and Screamers cost the same.

So we Net out 53 points cheaper.

OF course this list in the new book is way worse (not daemons neccessarily, but this list definitely) as screamers got a bit worse (without abusing the grimoir), flamers are way worse, troops got a bit better, fateweaver is different, masque got way worse.

But new book is a bit cheaper.

I have a few lists that I switch between when I play. It's a mixed bag really.

My favorite 5th ed. list is vehicle heavy and utilized an assault terminator squad. This list went up in points quite substantially.

5th ed. list (Terminator Chaplain, Terminator assault squad w/ Land Raider Crusader, 2x Tactical squads w/ Rhino's, Predator, Vindicator, Land Raider)

The list I now use primarily in 6th ed. (more infantry bias) went down about 50 points.

6th ed. list (Terminator Librarian, Terminator squad, Sternguard vets., 2x Tactical squads w/ Rhino's, Scout squad, Stormtalon, Vindicator, Land Raider)

nkelsch wrote:Neat experiment. I look forward to everyone's results.

I play orks... so yeah, 4th edition codex says "Hi!"

Ascalam wrote:You don't have an option in the poll for no change, btw.

No codex change , ergo no points change ...

EmilCrane wrote:I could compare 4th ed guard to 5th ed guard, but I might as well compare two different armies. 5th ed guard look nothing like the previous editions.

RobPro wrote:You can't really.compare the old necron book to the new one. It's pretty much an entirely new army.

No worries guys - the purpose was to see if merely by codex changes, 6th edition armies are taking longer to play / have more models. So, including codecs that haven't changed since 5th would skew the result anyway!!

DevianID wrote:My issue with this poll is that to duplicate a 5th edition wave serpent in 6th is now impossible, as the new wave serpent shoots a serpent shield that would have cost a FORTUNE if it was included in the old eldar codex.

Look at tau as well, how many points would you need to pay to get 24 missile pod shots that a broadside team with drones put out? In the old book you could get a 2 shot missile pod on a suit for about 40 points, now for 12 points you can get missile drone. Sure the profile is different, but the shooting quality of tau and eldar are of such superior quality that its absurdly hard to calculate what an equivalent 5th Ed cost would be.

Finally, to contribute to the op, my main army of 5th was deathwing. Discounting the gain from rules that dont help my old force much like split fire in a unit with 1 ranged weapon, each unit went from about 240 with a cyclone and thss to about 275, plus Belial got a bit pricier too. All in all, I pay 170 MORE in 6th to field my old force, and I lost a lot of unique abilities that made the army work, like a total reserve deployment of all my forces. All I got was no scatter on Belial, but bikes already get scouting homers so its not much of a boon.

That's all true, and I realise that the effectiveness of some unit has changed which makes them better/worse/incomparable choices. The purpose was more to see if 6th edition codecs are making you take more 5ed points - and that therefore 6 edition armies are intrinsically bigger.

Maybe it would be better to have a poll that compares a 5th and. 6th edition list to see how many models/units are in them?

I think we can garner a bit looking at the Basic Troop choices

Tactical Marines went down 2 points
Chaos Marines went down 2 points
Scouts went down 2 points
Plague Bearers went down 6 points
Daemonettes went down 5 points
Horrors went down 11 points
Blood Letters are 6 points cheaper
Kroot went down 3(?) points
I believe Fire warriors are also cheaper
Dire Avengers are the same

That doesn't tell the whole story.

For example, while tac marines dropped in cost, their weapons went up in price. A unit with a flamer and a rocket launcher cost 170 in the 5ed codex, that same unit costs 160 now, or 170 if you take flakk missiles. This is actually better game design, as you're not necessarily paying for upgrades you're not using. In 5th ed, you were paying a tax on each marine that allowed a full unit to get their special and heavy at a discount. If you only bought a combat squad, you were being cheated.

Likewise, in the new chaos codex, the basic CSM is less expensive, but he comes with less. The 5th ed CSM had BP, CCW and Bolter, for 15. The new CSM pays an extra 2 points/man to get that same weapons, making the identical model cost exactly the same. Again, you now have the option of getting a cheaper man to fill the role you need without paying for gear you don't want, which is good, but it's not exactly a case of a price drop, it's more along the lines of itemizing costs better.

Crusader Squads went down in price slightly and gained grenades, but lost Rage, Fearless in CC and Righteous Zeal. Power Weapons and Fists are more expensive (25 points for a Power Fist on a 1A model? Pull the other one!) and if you want a Sergeant with stuff the squad will be more expensive than the old on, while being slower into CC and not hitting as hard on the charge.

Saved 200 pts, mostly due to the ridiculous price drop on my Grenadiers, my guardsmen are more expensive by a point, and the field artillery got more expensive by 5, as well.