Dark Angels vs ??

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**Niexist**

I'm wondering, in fluff terms are there any other space marine chapters that compare in strength to the Dark Angels? It is generally accepted they are at or above legion strength due to them not reporting exact numbers, and the fact that all of their successor chapters answer to them.

**macc92**

I think the Ultramarines would get an awful lot of successor support if big ol' papa smurf made the call

**ansacs**

A number of the more compliant "legions" (parent+successor chapters) are much larger than the dark angels. This is due to the high lords of terra not allowing the dark angels to create successor chapters as much as the other legions. This is of course as a direct result of the legion like structure of the parent and successor chapters. It is really not an easy question as by pure numbers DA would be one of the smaller ones. However the smurfs would not follow calgar into open rebellion or defying orders very easily whereas the DA successor chapters defy terras orders all the time so they can go hunt the fallen on the parent chapters orders.

**Void__Dragon**

Niexist wrote:
It is generally accepted they are at or above legion strength due to them not reporting exact numbers, and the fact that all of their successor chapters answer to them.

It is not generally accepted.

**Skylifter**

Void__Dragon wrote:
Niexist wrote:
It is generally accepted they are at or above legion strength due to them not reporting exact numbers, and the fact that all of their successor chapters answer to them.

It is not generally accepted.

+1

You possibly want it to be generally accepted, I'd venture. But it isn't. In fact, as a DA player and having thusly read their whole codex, I can say that it isn't even hinted at.

What you mean is maybe that because they have such strong ties with their existing successors, even going as far as considering the DA chapter master 'supreme' and therefore higher in rank than their successors' chapter masters, they and their successors would be easier to unite into a single force if need be.

However, many of the Ultramarines' successors feel no less attached to their parent chapter and most of their chapter masters would immediately send aid, be it a company or the whole chapter, if the Ultramarines were to call them to arms. And since the UM's genes are shared by something around a third of all SM chapters, while the DA have 6 mentioned successors, so realistically a maximum of 30 or 40 if we want to be generous, then even if all DA successors follow the DA in step and only a third of the UM ones follow their parent chapter, we are still looking at 40.000 DA versus 100.000 UMs.

So stop swooning over how strong and mighty the DA are, you son of a silly person.

**Void__Dragon**

Yeah, if we're including calling on other chapters for aid, Papa Smurf really is leading the most powerful Space Marine force in the Imperium. The Ultramarine successors really respect him, to the point of insulting him being enough cause to initiate and honorable duel to the death with another Marine (See: Minotaurs fluff).

**KhornedBeef**

Void__Dragon wrote:
Niexist wrote:
It is generally accepted they are at or above legion strength due to them not reporting exact numbers, and the fact that all of their successor chapters answer to them.

It is not generally accepted.

This
Evidence: this very thread

**Kain**

Heck, i think if the Minotaurs worked quickly enough to stop the call from going out, they could kill off the Dark Angels if the High lords got tired of them.

**Niexist**

I'm a new person, but I'm failing to see where in the fluff the ultramarines have direct control over their successor chapters in the same way that the dark angels do. We're not talking about a gene-seed battle of my dad can beat up your dad. We're talking actual sphere of influence power.

**SerQuintus**

Skylifter wrote:

What you mean is maybe that because they have such strong ties with their existing successors, even going as far as considering the DA chapter master 'supreme' and therefore higher in rank than their successors' chapter masters, they and their successors would be easier to unite into a single force if need be.

IIRC the 3rd edition codex did state that the Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels has authority over the Grand Masters of the Successors. This was 'generally accepted' as meaning that the Chapter Masters of the Successors are mere Grand Masters and that the Unforgiven were indeed operating as a full legion. However this train of thought is contradicted by both the hallowed Codex: Angels of Death and the new Codex which states that the Successors all have Supreme Grand Masters (they hold periodic summits on The Rock to coordinate their efforts).

**Kain**

Niexist wrote:
I'm a new person, but I'm failing to see where in the fluff the ultramarines have direct control over their successor chapters in the same way that the dark angels do. We're not talking about a gene-seed battle of my dad can beat up your dad. We're talking actual sphere of influence power.

Well in that case the Ultramarines have an entire miniature empire complete with guard regiments, a battlefleet, and PDF to call on.

**BrotherVord**

Black Templar numbers are reported as being several times the standard thousand in the codex astartes...and they would almost assuredly answer a call from the Imperial Fists.

That right there would confer a while hell of a lot of marines...not counting other successors

**Niexist**

BrotherVord wrote:
Black Templar numbers are reported as being several times the standard thousand in the codex astartes...and they would almost assuredly answer a call from the Imperial Fists.

That right there would confer a while hell of a lot of marines...not counting other successors

From the Dark Angels codex :

The Dark Angels acquiesced to the order to split, as doing
otherwise would raise suspicion at a time when they could ill
afford any scrutiny. From their Legion, they sired the Angels
of Absolution, the Angels of Redemption and the Angels of
Vengeance, each new Chapter led by its own Grand Master.
While showing all pretences of being independent, the Dark
Angels' Successor Chapters regularly met, in clandestine
fashion, to take their lead from the Grand Master of the
Dark Angels Chapter - for although they had been divided,
the Successor Chapters too had witnessed the Fall of
Caliban, and thus remained part of the Unforgiven, carrying
forth their secrets with them.

Now, can any of you guys talking about ultramarines, or imperial fist show me anything in fluff where their successor chapters answer to/take orders from their originator? I don't think you can, but you can certainly tell me about what you think they would do. What the above makes clear to me is that they are faking the funk as far as being a chapter, and are actually a legion.

**Formosa**

Yeah the New da dex does heavily imply that the da do control close to legion strength forces, but not directly command, the da chapter is 1k ish marines as normal, but they also heavily influence there successors, we just don't know to what extent.

**Super Ready**

There is a quote in the new Marine Codex, and I believe the last one too, though I can't point you to it without having the book handy right now. It's along the lines of - "it is a rare Chapter indeed that can afford to refuse a request from Lord Macragge himself". There are also NUMEROUS references to the Ultramarines requesting aid from their successors and vice versa. All you'd have to do to see these is, y'know, pick up the book and read it...

**MasterSlowPoke**

The Blood Angels also have strong support from their derivative chapters.

**Animus**

Skylifter wrote:
And since the UM's genes are shared by something around a third of all SM chapters

About two-thirds by M41 actually.

**WarlordRob117**

While I share the OPs passion for the might of the DA, they are out numbered by the Ultramarines on several levels due to combat experience and general imperial aid, considering the IG would be more apt to aid the ultramarines than the DA due to their secrecy. So not only would there be around 100K+ Ultramrines/successors but also a sizable IG contingent that they would have to contend with.

It has also be cited in fluff that Space marines of all chapters are able to provide aid to other chapters in quelling any possible renegade legions and so on. Since the DA has been on that precipace several times, it is logical to assume that not only would the DA have to contend with UMs and IG, but also the Inquisition, and due to their rivalry, Space Wolves (Need I remind you SWs are way over legion capacity).

Now, what the DA have going for them more-so than any other chapter is their martial crafts and discipline. While it is highly unlikely, I do believe it possible that the DA would take a significant chunk out of the opposing force, simply through combat experience and tactics, as they have with other campaigns in the past. They arent called sons of the lion for nothing.

**Mr Morden**

I would say that the 1st Founding Chapters with successor Chapters have strong links with them and the successors usually look to them for guidance and retain appropriate loyalty to them - its not always true - look at the Iron Hands one that is basically those who disagreed with them about a AM schism but generally I think its true?

Also even if the the named Chapters are in thrall to the Dark Angels - thats only another few thousand marines - much less than a HH Legion and probably less than the Black Templars. The Wolves are also another over large Chapter but no one approaches anything like the current fluff numbers for a Legion. The Ultramarinrs Plus ALL their successors plus their PDF etc might get the nearest..........

Where ultra loyalist Marines (Fists, Black Templars, Salamanders and Ultramarines) do score is the lack of suspicion from the Inquisiton - the Dark Angels often act suspciously.........and are watched closely for it.....

**Orblivion**

I don't think the Space Wolves are actually that much larger than a codex chapter. They have 12 companies, and those companies vary in size, but there is nothing to suggest that they vastly outnumber a codex chapter. I would assume they are somewhere around 1500 in number, maybe closer to 2000.

They certainly aren't like the Black Templars, that number 5-6 thousand in total.

**Niexist**

Mr Morden wrote:
I would say that the 1st Founding Chapters with successor Chapters have strong links with them and the successors usually look to them for guidance and retain appropriate loyalty to them - its not always true - look at the Iron Hands one that is basically those who disagreed with them about a AM schism but generally I think its true?

Also even if the the named Chapters are in thrall to the Dark Angels - thats only another few thousand marines - much less than a HH Legion and probably less than the Black Templars. The Wolves are also another over large Chapter but no one approaches anything like the current fluff numbers for a Legion. The Ultramarinrs Plus ALL their successors plus their PDF etc might get the nearest..........

Where ultra loyalist Marines (Fists, Black Templars, Salamanders and Ultramarines) do score is the lack of suspicion from the Inquisiton - the Dark Angels often act suspciously.........and are watched closely for it.....

Dark angels have 6 successor chapters listed in the new codex, Angels of absolution, Disciples of Caliban, Guardians of the covenant, The Consecrators, The Angels of Vengeance, and the Angels of Redemption. NONE of these chapters including the Dark Angels themselves report their true numbers, this is stated in the codex. So with 7 chapters all answering to the same person, that is a MINIMUM of 7000 space marines. A legion is 10,000. How are you getting a "few thousand" Or is that just something you're saying to make your arguement look better? Let's say there are 12-1500 in each of the successor chapters and the Dark Angels, then guess what? You're at legion strength!

There is a reason that the codex has at least 6 different mentions of the Dark Angels being accused of legion building, and it's not because they only have a couple thousand space marines.

**Orblivion**

Niexist wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
I would say that the 1st Founding Chapters with successor Chapters have strong links with them and the successors usually look to them for guidance and retain appropriate loyalty to them - its not always true - look at the Iron Hands one that is basically those who disagreed with them about a AM schism but generally I think its true?

Also even if the the named Chapters are in thrall to the Dark Angels - thats only another few thousand marines - much less than a HH Legion and probably less than the Black Templars. The Wolves are also another over large Chapter but no one approaches anything like the current fluff numbers for a Legion. The Ultramarinrs Plus ALL their successors plus their PDF etc might get the nearest..........

Where ultra loyalist Marines (Fists, Black Templars, Salamanders and Ultramarines) do score is the lack of suspicion from the Inquisiton - the Dark Angels often act suspciously.........and are watched closely for it.....

Dark angels have 6 successor chapters listed in the new codex, Angels of absolution, Disciples of Caliban, Guardians of the covenant, The Consecrators, The Angels of Vengeance, and the Angels of Redemption. NONE of these chapters including the Dark Angels themselves report their true numbers, this is stated in the codex. So with 7 chapters all answering to the same person, that is a MINIMUM of 7000 space marines. A legion is 10,000. How are you getting a "few thousand" Or is that just something you're saying to make your arguement look better? Let's say there are 12-1500 in each of the successor chapters and the Dark Angels, then guess what? You're at legion strength!

There is a reason that the codex has at least 6 different mentions of the Dark Angels being accused of legion building, and it's not because they only have a couple thousand space marines.

10,000 does not a legion make. Even the smallest legions during the Great Crusade numbered roughly 70,000. Ultramarines were the largest at around 250,000.

**Niexist**

Wow and with 250,000 they still won less battles than the Luna Wolves, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves, since that is the order given for the most successful chapter/primarch.

Pretty pathetic when you have 10x as many space marines as everyone else, and still don't win more battles.

**Animus**

Niexist wrote:
Wow and with 250,000 they still won less battles than the Luna Wolves, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves, since that is the order given for the most successful chapter/primarch.

Pretty pathetic when you have 10x as many space marines as everyone else, and still don't win more battles.

That's a matter of debate, it's been said in some sources that the Ultramarines liberated more worlds, did so more quickly, and all while taking fewer casualties than the other Legions.

**Mr Morden**

Niexist wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
I would say that the 1st Founding Chapters with successor Chapters have strong links with them and the successors usually look to them for guidance and retain appropriate loyalty to them - its not always true - look at the Iron Hands one that is basically those who disagreed with them about a AM schism but generally I think its true?

Also even if the the named Chapters are in thrall to the Dark Angels - thats only another few thousand marines - much less than a HH Legion and probably less than the Black Templars. The Wolves are also another over large Chapter but no one approaches anything like the current fluff numbers for a Legion. The Ultramarinrs Plus ALL their successors plus their PDF etc might get the nearest..........

Where ultra loyalist Marines (Fists, Black Templars, Salamanders and Ultramarines) do score is the lack of suspicion from the Inquisiton - the Dark Angels often act suspciously.........and are watched closely for it.....

Dark angels have 6 successor chapters listed in the new codex, Angels of absolution, Disciples of Caliban, Guardians of the covenant, The Consecrators, The Angels of Vengeance, and the Angels of Redemption. NONE of these chapters including the Dark Angels themselves report their true numbers, this is stated in the codex. So with 7 chapters all answering to the same person, that is a MINIMUM of 7000 space marines. A legion is 10,000. How are you getting a "few thousand" Or is that just something you're saying to make your arguement look better? Let's say there are 12-1500 in each of the successor chapters and the Dark Angels, then guess what? You're at legion strength!

There is a reason that the codex has at least 6 different mentions of the Dark Angels being accused of legion building, and it's not because they only have a couple thousand space marines.

7-10,000 is a goodly number - but as others have noted - its nothing like the current numbers that are stated for HH era Legions. Thats why I said it would take the UM and ALL their successors to even appraoch this size....

I must admit I have not got the current DA only the current SM Codex so it may be the intention to suggest the DA's size as being considerable and that they have unusual co-ordination of their successors............

**WarlordRob117**

Orblivion wrote:
I don't think the Space Wolves are actually that much larger than a codex chapter. They have 12 companies, and those companies vary in size, but there is nothing to suggest that they vastly outnumber a codex chapter. I would assume they are somewhere around 1500 in number, maybe closer to 2000.

They certainly aren't like the Black Templars, that number 5-6 thousand in total.

No insult intended, but what Space Wolves literature have you been reading? it has been cited in BL novels and in GWs codex for Space Wolves (circa 5th Edition) that space wolves never followed the codex astartes and are very much so a legion sized element, plus or minus a couple hundred marines depending on the M-date and whole grueling their battles were.

**Mr Morden**

I would agree with Orblivion that according to the 5th Ed Codex - the Wolves are a good sized Chapter - pushing towards a couple of thousand but like most things fluff its left fairly vague on purpose

The Great Companies are oversized and they have 12 of them.

However they certainly are nowhere near the Legion size of maybe 100,000 Marines.

**Niexist**

Animus wrote:
Niexist wrote:
Wow and with 250,000 they still won less battles than the Luna Wolves, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves, since that is the order given for the most successful chapter/primarch.

Pretty pathetic when you have 10x as many space marines as everyone else, and still don't win more battles.

That's a matter of debate, it's been said in some sources that the Ultramarines liberated more worlds, did so more quickly, and all while taking fewer casualties than the other Legions.

It's not a matter of debate, it's a matter of what is stated in a codex

During this time, no record of the Dark Angels' victories was
kept, but it is known that Jonson won wide acclaim for his
masterful tactics and the tenacity of his Legion. It infuriated
Jonson's fraternal rival, Leman Russ, to admit that another
Primarch could claim more triumphs than he. Yet there
was one who achieved even greater military success than
Jonson - Horus and his Luna Wolves Legion.

Don't see anything in there about robot girlyman, or the ultramarines, do you?

**WarlordRob117**

Niexist wrote:
Don't see anything in there about robot girlyman, or the ultramarines, do you?

HAHAHAHAHA

... You sir win the thread...

**Animus**

Niexist wrote:
Don't see anything in there about robot girlyman, or the ultramarines, do you?

Not there obviously, but as I said there are conflicting sources of the matter.

The Ultramarines Legion of Space Marines was assigned to the control of Roboute Guilliman and its forward base relocated to Macragge. The Primarch quickly assimilated the many wonders of the Imperium and set about his new role with skill and enthusiasm. His chief talents, as ever, lay in war, and he soon led the Ultramarines in fresh conquests in the galactic south. He succeeded in liberating more worlds during the Great Crusade than any other Primarch, and the worlds he brought within the Imperium were to benefit from his organisational skills and passion for efficient government.

Whenever Roboute Guilliman freed a world from the tyranny of Orks, Chaos or other aliens, his first priority was to set up a self-supporting defence system. Once a world was safe he could move on, leaving behind enough advisers to ensure that industry would be created, trading routes set up with the Imperium, and government directed towards the prosperity of the people. In this way the Ultramarines could conquer worlds faster than any other Space Marine Legion.

Meanwhile, the fortress of the Ultramarines grew on Macragge. Some Ultramarines remained behind to supervise the work, which progressed rapidly thanks to the ready trading network and advanced industries of the planet. Within a year a training base was established, and recruiting began on the planet Macragge and surrounding worlds. It was not long before the Ultramarines Legion recieved its first influx of warriors born and bred on Macragge. Thanks to their usual thoroughness of organisation, the Ultramarines were able to recieve constant recruits throughout the Great Crusade. Because of its strong recruitment base and Roboute Guilliman's tactical expertise the Ultramarines soon became the largest Legion, having more recruits than any other Legion and suffering fewer casualties.

Nothing about Smurfs in yours, and nothing about dress wearers, dog fondlers or heretics in mine.