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So I'm reading over the SM codex and coming up with a long term direction to take my army. I'm normally a Salamander pod list player (or at least building up to it), but after reading the White Scars chapter tactics and Khan's rules, I really want to start a bike army. Then I thought, what about combining the two? With space marine's ability to ally with themselves, I'm wondering if it could be viable. Drop the pods behind the enemy, then run the bikes up the board.

If this is a tactic used before, my apologies, I haven't been playing the game very long.

Anyway, that begs the question of who to take for the main detachment. This is assuming I'm going for a 2000 point list. With the allied FOC, if I took Salamanders as allies to White Scars, I could bring 3 (4 if I take a TFC) pods, only netting me 2 on turn one. That would be 2 troops and an elite choice, more than likely being a full 10 man Sternguard pod with combi-flamers/meltas. However, if I went with White Scars as allies, for 653 points I could bring Khan, 2 5-man bike squads kitted with grav-guns and MM attack bike, along with a 3-man MM attack bike squad. That's 14 bikes, and should leave me enough points for a decent pod list from the Salamanders.

Does anyone have any tips they could add to this, maybe something I'm not thinking of? Is a strategy like this viable? I'd like to work toward a full-on 2000 point army instead of just hodge-podging it with small lists here and there, and I think I finally found tactics I like and 2 chapters whose fluff I really enjoy.

Cruz wrote:


Anyway, that begs the question of who to take for the main detachment. This is assuming I'm going for a 2000 point list. With the allied FOC, if I took Salamanders as allies to White Scars, I could bring 3 (4 if I take a TFC) pods, only netting me 2 on turn one. That would be 2 troops and an elite choice, more than likely being a full 10 man Sternguard pod with combi-flamers/meltas. However, if I went with White Scars as allies, for 653 points I could bring Khan, 2 5-man bike squads kitted with grav-guns and MM attack bike, along with a 3-man MM attack bike squad. That's 14 bikes, and should leave me enough points for a decent pod list from the Salamanders.
.

You could also take an assault squad and get a free Drop Pod if you drop the Jump Packs, then give them x2 flamers or x3 plasma pistols and have it.

 gmaleron wrote:

Cruz wrote:


Anyway, that begs the question of who to take for the main detachment. This is assuming I'm going for a 2000 point list. With the allied FOC, if I took Salamanders as allies to White Scars, I could bring 3 (4 if I take a TFC) pods, only netting me 2 on turn one. That would be 2 troops and an elite choice, more than likely being a full 10 man Sternguard pod with combi-flamers/meltas. However, if I went with White Scars as allies, for 653 points I could bring Khan, 2 5-man bike squads kitted with grav-guns and MM attack bike, along with a 3-man MM attack bike squad. That's 14 bikes, and should leave me enough points for a decent pod list from the Salamanders.
.

You could also take an assault squad and get a free Drop Pod if you drop the Jump Packs, then give them x2 flamers or x3 plasma pistols and have it.

Ah, didn't think of that. I didn't even realize you got the drop pod for free! Awesome

Either way, it looks like an army list like this would have to be Salamanders allied with White Scars, not the other way around. A good drop pod alpha strike seems too expensive for allies, since you're going to need at least 3 pods to give the player enough threats. After tallying some points, Salamander allies with:

Vulkan
2 full man tac squads (combi melta, melta, multi-melta) in pods
5 man assault squad with 2 flamers and a pod
10 man Sternguard, 10 combi-weapon, pod
TFC, pod

is well over 1000 points. The Sternguard are way to expensive for this. So even if I took them out and put in, say, an Ironclad dread with dual heavy flamers, I'm still looking at 1005 points. If I drop the TFC, dread, or assault squad, I'm left with only 4 pods.

However, if I go with a White Scars allied detachment, looking like:

Khan
2 5-man bike squads inlcuding a MM attack bike, 2x grav guns
3-man MM attack bike squad

I'm at 653 points, leaving me 1347 points to work with. I can use some of those points to give the bike squads power lances and melta bombs, or possibly add another bike to each squad. Either way, that gives me 14-16 bikes running up the field, with about 1200-1300 points for my main detachment.

How does this sound overall? I haven't made an allied list before, so I don't know if there's a "golden rule" on how much you should spend on allies. I'm really hoping this could be a viable strategy, I'd love to model this force.

Honestly, when they're battle brothers I don't think the points balance between the detachments really matters. When designing lists with BB's, the only real concern I have is how many FOC slots I need for each detachment, and whether or not either side has special rules that affect Reserve rolls (since the FAQ clarifies that they only work for Reserve units from the primary detachment).

Been thinking about running a bike/pod list myself, but all Salamanders.

Droppod and bike tactics... that sounds like something that fits the whole DA codex

 hazal wrote:
Droppod and bike tactics... that sounds like something that fits the whole DA codex

Haha, true; difference is that we're hoping it works this time.

The big difference between DA and SM in this kind of list is, I believe, threefold:

1) The Thunderfire Cannon. We have, I suspect, the best anti-horde/infantry weapon here of any power armor army. The ability to enhance cover saves won't actually help against Tau, but it is a valuable bonus against all other armies.

2) The Stormtalon/raven. We have two good fliers, and in separate force org slots, while DA have two lousy fliers that (I believe) are both Fast Attack. Combined with the possibility that the hunter/stalker will be good, I think we have the air defense that out bikes and drop pod troops will need to survive. As well, when opposing fliers aren't an issue, these are still very valuable to just put down a lot of fire exactly where it is needed.

3) Sternguard. Nothing is better coming out of a pod than these guys, and when backed up by Tigurius it is even more pronounced.

Maybe this should be a 4th point, but marine bikes are also much cheaper than Ravenwing, which also gives me hope that this bike/pod army will work.

Here's a draft list. There are some other ideas I have, like reducing the bikes to 5 ea, taking out their power lances, and replacing the assault squads with 2 thunderfire cannons and pods. Or, replacing the regular dreadnoughts with dual heavy flamer dread.

Vulkan - 190
2x 10-man tactical squads in pods, melta, combi-melta - 390
2x Multi-melta/heavy flamer dreadnoughts in pods - 290
5-man Sternguard, all combi meltas, in pod - 205
2x 5-man assault squads, 2 flamers ea, in pods - 190

Khan on bike - 150
2x 6-man bike squads including a MM attack bike, 1 power lance, melta bombs, 2x grav-guns - 420
3-man MM attack bike squad - 165

I like everything but the MM Attack Bikes. They already weren't great and they got a price hike. I would drop them in favor of a Command Squad on Bikes rocking a lot of Grav Guns.

magodedisco wrote:
I like everything but the MM Attack Bikes. They already weren't great and they got a price hike. I would drop them in favor of a Command Squad on Bikes rocking a lot of Grav Guns.

Why aren't they that great? Not disagreeing, I've just never used a bike army before and I'm new to these guys.

magodedisco wrote:
I like everything but the MM Attack Bikes. They already weren't great and they got a price hike. I would drop them in favor of a Command Squad on Bikes rocking a lot of Grav Guns.

...whaaaaa...? You DIDN'T like MM Attack Bikes? There's nothing better in the book for taking out AV13/14. They're still cheaper than Land Speeders, which are typically easier to take out than the Bikes, and with the MM's short range you need speed to get the most out of it - so Devastators or drop-pods aren't the best option either. Or is the MM itself the problem?

To answer the original question - I would look at Imperial Fists. You get rerolls for normal bolters all day long and the one unit you'd be taking that doesn't get that (Sternguard) can be made scoring with Kantor. I do like the Salamanders idea though, the weapons this benefits work best up-close and pods of course mean you've not wasted any time getting them in range.

Cruz wrote:
Here's a draft list. There are some other ideas I have, like reducing the bikes to 5 ea, taking out their power lances, and replacing the assault squads with 2 thunderfire cannons and pods. Or, replacing the regular dreadnoughts with dual heavy flamer dread.

Vulkan - 190
2x 10-man tactical squads in pods, melta, combi-melta - 390
2x Multi-melta/heavy flamer dreadnoughts in pods - 290
5-man Sternguard, all combi meltas, in pod - 205
2x 5-man assault squads, 2 flamers ea, in pods - 190

Khan on bike - 150
2x 6-man bike squads including a MM attack bike, 1 power lance, melta bombs, 2x grav-guns - 420
3-man MM attack bike squad - 165

You don't need the Attack Bike squads with the amount of Melta you already are putting out. Use the points to turn both Dreads into Ironclads (much better than basics), and beef up the Sternguard. I think 5 combis is a tad too much (3 will take out any vehicles on average out of cover), and the Power Lance is a novelty more than anything IMO, so you could make even more points there.

you don't want to pay for a drop pod if it brings you up to an even number of pods.

Also, unless White Scars are your primary, I don't think you want Khan. He only grants Scout if he is the Warlord. If you aren't getting Scout from him, I think a biker captain will offer more flexibility and at a lower price. A Captain + bike + combigrav + auspex is 25 pts less than Khan and is still cheaper even if you add artificer armour or a storm shield.

davou wrote:you don't want to pay for a drop pod if it brings you up to an even number of pods.

Agreed. I'm at 7 right now.

tomjoad wrote:Also, unless White Scars are your primary, I don't think you want Khan. He only grants Scout if he is the Warlord. If you aren't getting Scout from him, I think a biker captain will offer more flexibility and at a lower price. A Captain + bike + combigrav + auspex is 25 pts less than Khan and is still cheaper even if you add artificer armour or a storm shield.

Ah, good point.

I'm thinking if I really want this to be a solid list, I'd need some anti-air for sure. With changing Khan to a captain, taking out the lances, and maybe reducing the bikes by 1 I might be able to squeeze something in there.

The list I'm planning on trying out (though my game tonight just got cancelled, unfortunately) is:

Tigurius

7 Sternguard in drop pod

10 tac marines w/ all meltas in a drop pod
10 tac marines w/ all meltas in a drop pod
10 tac marines w/ all plasmas in a drop pod
5 tac marines w/ flamer, combiflamer in a drop pod

2 Storm Talons with Skyhammers

2 TFCs
5 Devastators w/ Lascannons

Biker Captain with combigrav and auspex
5 Bikes with 2 grav and combigrav

That's just under 2k, and a bit light on bikes for what we're talking about here, but that's all the bikes I have so far so that's where I'm starting. It should be enough anti-air, anti-horde, and anti-monstrous creature...but only experience will tell for sure.

Cruz wrote:
Here's a draft list. There are some other ideas I have, like reducing the bikes to 5 ea, taking out their power lances, and replacing the assault squads with 2 thunderfire cannons and pods. Or, replacing the regular dreadnoughts with dual heavy flamer dread.

Vulkan - 190
2x 10-man tactical squads in pods, melta, combi-melta - 390
2x Multi-melta/heavy flamer dreadnoughts in pods - 290
5-man Sternguard, all combi meltas, in pod - 205
2x 5-man assault squads, 2 flamers ea, in pods - 190

Khan on bike - 150
2x 6-man bike squads including a MM attack bike, 1 power lance, melta bombs, 2x grav-guns - 420
3-man MM attack bike squad - 165

One thing to note/keep in mind is that Dreads won't benefit from the Chapter Tactics, so the flamers aren't as good anymore.

 tomjoad wrote:
The list I'm planning on trying out...*snippety snip*

With that list - DEFINITELY Imperial Fists. All those standard bolters, and lascannon Devastators getting Tank Hunter? It's an absolute no-brainer. Even the bikes would get bolter rerolls from their standard twin-linked bike-mounted guns.

There aren't nearly enough Sternguard to make squeezing Kantor in there worth it. Ultramarines would only get two turns of use out of doctrines, and White Scars wouldn't really do anything for the bulk of your list. Salamanders meanwhile would need much more focussed weapon choices to be worthwhile.

The IF CT will only affect my worst guns as it is, and would cost me Tigurius. I'd rather have the meltas and flamers TL'd for a turn, as well as a ton of TL'ing on the sterns, to be able to have a decent shot at crippling what I want when I need to.

Also, I didn't mention it in the list, but I am almost certainly going to make the bikes allied White Scars. Even still, I'd prefer UM to IF for them just to make them more likely to hit with the gravs on the turn I NEED to kill that Riptide/Wraithknight that would otherwise wreck me.

Iron Hands

Master of The Forge - 90 pts

Ironclad Dreadnought - 180 pts
Heavy Flamer
Drop Pod

Ironclad Dreadnought - 180 pts
Heavy Flamer
Drop Pod

Ironclad Dreadnought - 180 pts
Heavy Flamer
Drop Pod

Assault Squad x 5 - 95 pts
2x Flamers
Drop Pod

Tac Squad - 120 pts
Plasmagun
Drop Pod

Tac Squad - 120 pts
Plasmagun
Drop Pod

Hunter - 70 pts

White Scars;

Captain - 110 pts
Bike

Command Squad - 225 pts
Bikes
5x Grav Guns
Apothecary

5x Man Bike Squad - 160
2 Meltaguns
Attack Bike w/ Multi Melta

I know it doesn't use Sallies but I just couldn't resist.

 NickTheButcher wrote:

Cruz wrote:
Here's a draft list. There are some other ideas I have, like reducing the bikes to 5 ea, taking out their power lances, and replacing the assault squads with 2 thunderfire cannons and pods. Or, replacing the regular dreadnoughts with dual heavy flamer dread.

Vulkan - 190
2x 10-man tactical squads in pods, melta, combi-melta - 390
2x Multi-melta/heavy flamer dreadnoughts in pods - 290
5-man Sternguard, all combi meltas, in pod - 205
2x 5-man assault squads, 2 flamers ea, in pods - 190

Khan on bike - 150
2x 6-man bike squads including a MM attack bike, 1 power lance, melta bombs, 2x grav-guns - 420
3-man MM attack bike squad - 165

One thing to note/keep in mind is that Dreads won't benefit from the Chapter Tactics, so the flamers aren't as good anymore.

Anything you could recommend I replace them with? With some more tinkering, I've also now considered not using White Scars chapter tactics and just adding another Salamanders FOC to include the bikes that were going to be under the allies. I'd still paint them as White Scars, to keep up with the fluff. What I'm trying to do now is work on a list with at least 2 Stormtalons for anti air, while still keeping 7 pods and 2 units of bikers. Just trying to get the points situated.

Cruz wrote:

 NickTheButcher wrote:

Cruz wrote:
Here's a draft list. There are some other ideas I have, like reducing the bikes to 5 ea, taking out their power lances, and replacing the assault squads with 2 thunderfire cannons and pods. Or, replacing the regular dreadnoughts with dual heavy flamer dread.

Vulkan - 190
2x 10-man tactical squads in pods, melta, combi-melta - 390
2x Multi-melta/heavy flamer dreadnoughts in pods - 290
5-man Sternguard, all combi meltas, in pod - 205
2x 5-man assault squads, 2 flamers ea, in pods - 190

Khan on bike - 150
2x 6-man bike squads including a MM attack bike, 1 power lance, melta bombs, 2x grav-guns - 420
3-man MM attack bike squad - 165

One thing to note/keep in mind is that Dreads won't benefit from the Chapter Tactics, so the flamers aren't as good anymore.

Anything you could recommend I replace them with? With some more tinkering, I've also now considered not using White Scars chapter tactics and just adding another Salamanders FOC to include the bikes that were going to be under the allies. I'd still paint them as White Scars, to keep up with the fluff. What I'm trying to do now is work on a list with at least 2 Stormtalons for anti air, while still keeping 7 pods and 2 units of bikers. Just trying to get the points situated.

If the goal is Drop Pods, Heavy Flamers and Melta, Sternguard are the answer.

 NickTheButcher wrote:

If the goal is Drop Pods, Heavy Flamers and Melta, Sternguard are the answer.

Definitely. Sternguard are so expensive though, so I might have to save another squad for a full Salamanders list. Here's what I'm looking at right now:

Vulkan - 190
2x 10-man tac squads, MC combi-melta, flamer, pod - 380
2 HF/MM Dreads in pods - 270
5x Sternguard, pod, MC melta, 4 combi melta, pod - 205
TFC, pod - 135
2 Stalkers - 150
Captain on bike, thunder hammer, Shield Eternal (chapter master is a bit expensive) - 190
2x 5 bikes, including MM attack bike, 2x grav guns, melta bombs - 348
Skyhammer Stormtalon - 125

Takes it to 1993 points. I can have the TFC nestled between the Stalkers and try to repair if need be while the Skyhammer can zoom around and do its thing. However, here is what I'm really, really up in the air about: Do I keep the list as it, or do I remove the Stormtalon and melta bombs on the bikes for another TFC and pod? Not only will it give me another TFC for inaccuracy issues and horde control, but it bumps it up to 7 pods, letting me bring in 4.