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So here goes this is my double Gravstar Ultramarines I'm mainly using UM tactics because I'm a UM player I do understand Iron Hands would probably be the better choice.

LIST 1:

UMs

Libby:Lvl 2: shield Eternal, auspex 150

Tac squad: Plasma Cannon, Combi-grav 95
Tac squad: flamer, combi-flamer, rhino 120

Stormtalon: skyhammers 125
Stormtalon: skyhammers 125

Stalker 75
Stalker 75
4 Centurions: grav cannons, omniscope 340

IH

Libby: Terminator Armour, SS 100

Tac Squad: flamer, combi-flamer, rhino 120

4 Centurions: grav cannons, omniscope 340

ADL: Icarus 80

OR

LIST 2

Libby: Shield Eternal, Auspex 125

10 man Tac squad: Plasma cannon, Plasma gun, combigrav 180
Tac squad: flamer, combi-flamer, rhino 120

LotD: Plasma cannon, plasma gun, combigrav 165

Stalker 75
Stalker 75
4 Centurions: grav cannons, omniscope 340

IH

Libby: terminator armour, SS 100

Tac squad: flamer combi-flamer, rhino 120

4 Centurions: grav cannons, omniscope

Which is better?

After field testing the stalker tanks, I was quite sad, skyfire means that some games they'll go to a total waste, and if your opponent wants them dead they'll be gone before flyers come on, so watch out for points sinks..

If you are already going ultramarines why not Tigurius? He's much better for only a few more points.

Are your storm talons escorting each other or something?

I would take the second list, soley on the fact that I like legion of the damned, especially in that configuration.. But I don't see the point of your allies really other than buffing a librarian. Why not max out ultramarines and take more points in scoring of legion?

Tigirius is terrible compared to my librarian. 1 lascannons shot and he's dead where as my Libby on average can take 6 lascannons wounds before he dies. Remember the sole purpose of my HQs is to tank AP2 shots for the Centurions.

Stalkers have done well for me so far unlike the hunter even against armies without flyers, FMCs or skimmers (which is rare) they have enough twin linked shots to chip away hull points from Dreads and transports.

My Stormtalons aren't escorting anything. Not really convinced that you ever would unless you're going really flyer heavy with 2-3 Stormravens to be escorted.

I have 4 HS slots so am required to have allies. Still undecided on Cents or a Stalker in the IH allies. The Cents get rerolls 1s to hit in the UM detachment but FnP and IWND on the Sarge in the IH detachment...

I normally run a stalker in the allies.

The LoTD are there specifically to deal with the Farsun bomb. But I am seriously worried about a lack of AA in that list. Plus I have literally nothing that can hurt a Firestorm Redoubt.

Anybody?

I haven't had the ability to play against Stalkers personally, but the problem I see with them, like the Quad-Gun/Icarus is that they get killed when the flyers come on first turn.

Your list however does have a big saturation of targets for when the flyers come on which reduces the risk of them dying before they get to shoot at their primary target. I do love that you have 5 options for anti-air - and with the stormtalons ability to go into hover mode (if needed) and the stalkers with TL shots, you do cover the possibility if someone doesn't bring any flyers, skimmers, or flying MCs.

I'd say the centurions would be better fit for the UM chapter because with a 6+ feel no pain, it will hardly do anything, you'd save one wound on average out of the 8 required to kill the squad, would it be better to be re-rolling ones, especially when you are pushing in a big turn. This also allows the stalker to gain It Will Not Die, which is huge.

I'd also say with weight of fire, with the tactical squads with flamers and combi-flamers, as well as the centurions and storm talons, you have enough to tackle the Farsight Bomb, even if you don't take away their armour save with the plasma LoTD squad like the other list, i'd find that the farsight bomb will kill that off first as that would be the biggest threat.

What psychic powers would you be going for with the librarians?

Cheers I think you're right I should keep the Cents with the Ultras. The advantages for LoTD is fairly accurate DS and ignoring that 2+ cover that the bomb has and gets to shoot first. Using my volume fire to strip drones and then the LoTD drop in and kill some of the important stuff.

I think over all though the Stormtalon list is the better one. But I will get nailed by the bomb.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Libbies will go with biomancy hoping for life leech, endurance or Iron arm (warp speeds not too bad either for them).

That's just the nature of 40k though, i don't think you'll be able to have a list which can deal with every list of every codex, no matter how hard you try there will be a Rock Paper Scissors element.

I forgot LoTD had ignores cover, and I've read the space marine codex a million times *facepalm*. Your only other option would be to take a thunder fire cannon or sternguard for ignores cover options. A thunder fire cannon could be interestingl, but then the bomb will just deep strike next to your cannon and kill it first. good choice with the librarians, you're not relying on those powers, they're just useful if they work out well for you!

Yeah the Libbies are simply the cheapest way to get a 3++ at the front of a unit. If I get iron arm on the terminator librarian I'm golden, endurance on either is pretty brutal too. But yeah the powers are not the reason for them and they do their job with them plus even smite works quite well with the unit as its AP2. Haemorage is the only spell I really don't want (which competes with Death Mission for worst power ever).

Im a little confused as to why the UM list is the main detachment when if you took IH as the main detachment you would gain IWND on all your vehicles, move one tac squad to the second detachment and you basically have the same list except with IWND vehicles? Possibly food for thought?

Firstly because I'm a UM player, but with no prescience getting rerolls of 1 to hit with the Cents on the turn I need them to kill something. IWND is not a great benefit to Storm talons with only 2 HPs they'll probably die the same turn they lose their first HP.

But mainly the fact I'm a UM player. I do get that IHs is a great chapter tactics.

you'd still have 4 cents rerolling 1's to hit, since both detachments have 4 cents in them,
but thats fair, kudos for fluffiness and faction allegiance over miniscule optimization

I normally run both units of Cents in the UM detachment so people where I play have been trying to convince me to move them the IH detachment. I will put them back into the UM one.

I'm trying the LoTD variant tonight (haven't got Storm talons built) against Tau so I'll see how the LoTD get on and if they are good as I need them to be against the Farsun bomb (if he's running that which I know he sometimes does).

It'll be good to see how they get on. Let us know how they get on. What would you be running if you don't use the storm talons?

It will be list 2 but as were playing 1850 I'll up the ADL to a Firestorm.