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Hello DakkaDakka forums,

I've completed the initial prototype of my new miniatures game accessory, the LightRanger (patent pending). Aimed at miniatures gamers playing just about any game, the LightRanger uses lasers to measure distances for movement, firing, etc. No more knocking over precious models and scraping up detailed paint jobs! The device also allows very easy measurement from or to center of model, which is challenging with a traditional tape measure.

At this time, I'm introducing the idea and trying to gather feedback. I am considering attending Fall In 2013 in November (http://www.fall-in.org/) to demonstrate the prototype.

Any input positive or negative is much appreciated. Reply here and feel free to email lightrangerinfo@gmail.com.

Video:

The LightRanger

http://youtu.be/KDNicAFdRmU

Thanks,
-Brad

It sounds kind of cool, but when tape measures already exist it seems a little redundant. It just seems like a solution to a problem that doesn't need solving. You even have it attached to a tape measure in your video, so you could already measure that distance without putting two laserpointers on it.

At first I thought this would be like the rangefinders you get on golf courses which lets you measure how far away from the hole you are. This... seems a little too bulky and not nearly as useful. Something lightpen shaped with a digital reading on the side would sell very well I suspect, but this seems little more than sticking a couple of quite heft looking lasers onto a tape measure.

When I first read what you wrote, I suspected you would be using a laser rangefinder/tape measure. Those exist already, and you can get the laser tape measures from home improvement type stores fairly easily, and now even relatively cheaply.

Then I watched your video and had to scratch my head a bit. Effectively you have markers, and a somewhat bulky method of doing them.

A few years ago we did the same thing for a friend who likes overly complicated devives to accomplish simple tasks, though we didn't bother with lasers and just used point light diodes (focused light, but less likely to cause retinal damage and the need less supporting equipment).

We popped open a standard tape measure and laminated the length with ribbon wire (same type of flat wire that is used on things like laptop monitors and keyboards). After that was done, we connected one point diode to the end of the tape measure and used a bulls eye overlay (so that when the light shines through it projects cross hairs). On the body of the tape measure itself we placed another point light with the same overlay. When we went to reassemble the tape we fished one wire to the left of the rolled up tape and one wire to the right and soldered spring brushes to them. We then put a solid copper disc on eather side with a UHMW plastic insulator between the tape and the disk leaving an area near the center for the brushes to contact the copper disc on eather side. Hook up batteries direct (3v disc battieries...think we used 2 in series). Modified the case to hold the extra width (I believe he actually used the case from a larger tape measure...though it has been several year now).

The lights were activated by pulling out the tape and you could easily center it with the bullseye marker. No extra stuff hanging off and the wires coiled back up with the tape when he let it back in. I know we had to make one modification after the first because after a few months of use, the locking mechanism had broke one of the wires in the under mounted ribbon wire and we needed to replace that. When we did, we notched out the locking mechanism so it wouldnt rub on the ribbon wires. After that he used it for at least a year till he was reassigned to a different city. I assume he is still using it now.

Still, even with that where everything was nicely self contained, I though it was overkill. Now his adjustable template system...that one was pretty neat and I have been meaning to create one of my own.

I voted maybe.
If you can make it cheaper, as easily available and the same weight as a standard tapemeasure then i'll pick one up as soon as i've lost my current tapemeasure,
Oh yeah, and also, it must never run out of batteries..

My first thought was it is easy to flex a standard tape measure slightly in order to increase or decrease the distance between the two points, allowing for cheatage on any number of points.

No I dont think this would be useful but I can be wrong though

I could see it coming in handy when there's a lot of terrain or other stuff keeping you from measuring close to the board, so you're forced to do it from higher up.

However, I would never buy something just to help with that particular situation which comes up once in a blue moon. Sorry.

Talk about a tool which would be prone for cheating. Even a slight misalignment of the lasers could turn a millimeter misalignment into multiple mm when held up high.

This tool does nothing that 'eyeballing' it can do, and this can be even more inaccurate than eyeballing.

I think we have learned to hover a tapemeasure half an inch above our models and eyeball it.

I don't see value in this.

I'd pay quite a bit for a more accurate measurement tool. To make one, though, I think you would need to integrate the extendable portion as part of a custom device, rather than just using a stock tape measure. The measurement is hard to read as-is since it is right up against the body of the tape measure (whereas normally folks will extend the tape out a few extra inches to measure between two models, like in the example, to read the tape better).

I think the folks who would be MOST interested in this is Warmachine, where tiny measurement differences make a huge difference in games routinely. I think you could make a killing with a robust solution that was sold as the absolute best tool for measurement.

It will be nowhere near as cheap as a tape measure, but if it can be more accurate, a LOT of warmachine players will want one.

As much as I hate to jump on haterade bandwagons, I think that you've got a great prototype here, but you've got a ways to go still until it is a useful gaming tool. The lasers would have to be aligned with the level (which I was relieved to see you already thought of! ) and encased in something that would make tampering difficult. I'd like to see a more robust design than what you have, something that could take a tumble and still function accurately. All in all, a wonderful idea, just not quite ready for shelves yet.

Something I like about this is that using it provides a very clear visual aid to your opponent, so they know you aren't 'cheater measuring.' (Front to back, or middle to back.)

First off, I'd like to thank you guys a lot for the detailed feedback so quickly, whether you like the idea or not. Now I'll address each one individually.

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It sounds kind of cool, but when tape measures already exist it seems a little redundant. It just seems like a solution to a problem that doesn't need solving. You even have it attached to a tape measure in your video, so you could already measure that distance without putting two laserpointers on it.

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The primary value-adds that I have in mind with this are saving you from straining your back repeatedly by bending over for every measurement, and the ability to measure without having to weave the tape through terrain or knock over and scratch models.

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At first I thought this would be like the rangefinders you get on golf courses which lets you measure how far away from the hole you are. This... seems a little too bulky and not nearly as useful. Something lightpen shaped with a digital reading on the side would sell very well I suspect, but this seems little more than sticking a couple of quite heft looking lasers onto a tape measure.

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So, remember that this is a pretty early prototype just to prove the concept. Even the next prototype I build will be significantly more streamlined, and the final product would be highly integrated. I do intend to put a digital readout a future version. The size of the prototyping boards that hold the lasers on this version are necessary to contain the batteries and mount the switches that provide the automatic turn on/off.

---

When I first read what you wrote, I suspected you would be using a laser rangefinder/tape measure. Those exist already, and you can get the laser tape measures from home improvement type stores fairly easily, and now even relatively cheaply.

Then I watched your video and had to scratch my head a bit. Effectively you have markers, and a somewhat bulky method of doing them.

A few years ago we did the same thing for a friend who likes overly complicated devives to accomplish simple tasks, though we didn't bother with lasers and just used point light diodes (focused light, but less likely to cause retinal damage and the need less supporting equipment).

We popped open a standard tape measure and laminated the length with ribbon wire (same type of flat wire that is used on things like laptop monitors and keyboards). After that was done, we connected one point diode to the end of the tape measure and used a bulls eye overlay (so that when the light shines through it projects cross hairs). On the body of the tape measure itself we placed another point light with the same overlay. When we went to reassemble the tape we fished one wire to the left of the rolled up tape and one wire to the right and soldered spring brushes to them. We then put a solid copper disc on eather side with a UHMW plastic insulator between the tape and the disk leaving an area near the center for the brushes to contact the copper disc on eather side. Hook up batteries direct (3v disc battieries...think we used 2 in series). Modified the case to hold the extra width (I believe he actually used the case from a larger tape measure...though it has been several year now).

The lights were activated by pulling out the tape and you could easily center it with the bullseye marker. No extra stuff hanging off and the wires coiled back up with the tape when he let it back in. I know we had to make one modification after the first because after a few months of use, the locking mechanism had broke one of the wires in the under mounted ribbon wire and we needed to replace that. When we did, we notched out the locking mechanism so it wouldnt rub on the ribbon wires. After that he used it for at least a year till he was reassigned to a different city. I assume he is still using it now.

Still, even with that where everything was nicely self contained, I though it was overkill. Now his adjustable template system...that one was pretty neat and I have been meaning to create one of my own.

---

Wow, that sounds pretty well thought out and constructed. Some of those features are what I intend to integrate into a production version if I end up going that far with this device.

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I voted maybe.
If you can make it cheaper, as easily available and the same weight as a standard tapemeasure then i'll pick one up as soon as i've lost my current tapemeasure,
Oh yeah, and also, it must never run out of batteries..

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This would most likely have to be a premium item or a kit you could attach to your existing tape measure. It's a pretty tall order to increase a design's capabilities while decreasing its cost. About the batteries, the current prototype runss about 10 hours of measuring time on two CR2032 batteries, although a more finalized version would likely integrate AAAs or a similiar cell into the tape measure body, possibly with a small rechargeable cell that powers the tip laser and recharges when the device is closed.

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My first thought was it is easy to flex a standard tape measure slightly in order to increase or decrease the distance between the two points, allowing for cheatage on any number of points.

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That is true to some extent and is one of the concerns of the design. However, the physical nature of the average tape measure helps with this, as they tend to already remain quite straight and solid in the vertical plane. There can be some twisting of the tape, but that doesn't really effect the accuracy of the measurement since it doesn't increase or decrease the distance between the laser points. In these games, we're usually concerned with measurements of a resolution that is pretty reachable with a device like this, even though you're suspending lasers over the table a short distance.

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No I dont think this would be useful but I can be wrong though

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All I'm asking for is your honest feedback. Thank you for that.

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I could see it coming in handy when there's a lot of terrain or other stuff keeping you from measuring close to the board, so you're forced to do it from higher up.

However, I would never buy something just to help with that particular situation which comes up once in a blue moon. Sorry.

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Some games that require dense terrain, such as Infinity, present this situation almost all the time. Also, like I said it will be easier on the back, and lasers make anything better. I appreciate your input.

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Talk about a tool which would be prone for cheating. Even a slight misalignment of the lasers could turn a millimeter misalignment into multiple mm when held up high.

This tool does nothing that 'eyeballing' it can do, and this can be even more inaccurate than eyeballing.

I think we have learned to hover a tapemeasure half an inch above our models and eyeball it.

I don't see value in this.

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For the expert, that's fair enough. I will say that the misalignment is less than you'd think. I have tested this to some extent and I will probably release a follow-on video demonstrating the effect of tilt on the measurement. Also, if you look closely in the video, I have a bubble level attached to the top of the tape measure body to help check the alignment.

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I'd pay quite a bit for a more accurate measurement tool. To make one, though, I think you would need to integrate the extendable portion as part of a custom device, rather than just using a stock tape measure. The measurement is hard to read as-is since it is right up against the body of the tape measure (whereas normally folks will extend the tape out a few extra inches to measure between two models, like in the example, to read the tape better).

I think the folks who would be MOST interested in this is Warmachine, where tiny measurement differences make a huge difference in games routinely. I think you could make a killing with a robust solution that was sold as the absolute best tool for measurement.

It will be nowhere near as cheap as a tape measure, but if it can be more accurate, a LOT of warmachine players will want one.

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I totally agree with the reading issue. I intend to address it in an integrated device by means of either a clear viewing window at the base of the tape as it meets the body so it can be easily read, and/or a digital readout which is large, bright, and easily seen without much squinting.

Thanks a lot for your vote of confidence and the feedback. I do believe that a finely tuned version will provide more accurate measurement than a standard tape measure provides. As far as cost is concerned, it will be more expensive than a standard tape but from what I predict it will not be insanely out of control more expensive. Adding electronics such as lasers, sensors, and displays will up the cost.

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As much as I hate to jump on haterade bandwagons, I think that you've got a great prototype here, but you've got a ways to go still until it is a useful gaming tool. The lasers would have to be aligned with the level (which I was relieved to see you already thought of! ) and encased in something that would make tampering difficult. I'd like to see a more robust design than what you have, something that could take a tumble and still function accurately. All in all, a wonderful idea, just not quite ready for shelves yet.

Something I like about this is that using it provides a very clear visual aid to your opponent, so they know you aren't 'cheater measuring.' (Front to back, or middle to back.)

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Thanks a lot, and I agree with you it needs a lot more design and refinement. That's the thing about a proof of concept. I wanted to get something to the table quickly to see if it would be useful before I completely fleshed it out. My next prototype, which I am now in the process of designing and building, like I said above will be much tighter than this initial build.

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