DrunkPhilisoph wrote:As the title says:
1. Is there any point in including Horrors, when you allready got one or two spellcasters in your hero/lord choices? The offer a low chance of getting some channeling dices, but take more power dice than they generate. In addition they only got one spell, so that most of the time their bonus to casting probably isn't going to do much.
At the very least a minimum sized unit of Horrors is a fairly cheap way to spam Lv1 wizards. While Lore of Tzeentch is generally terrible on them, it's not too hard to ensure you get spells like Gateway or Firestorm on them as long as you include another Tzeentch magic user...
6-dicing those two spells is a good way to make use of the Lore Attribute and build-up your numbers rather quickly, and Horrors themselves give a rat's piss about miscasting. (
2D6/S10 auto-hits that you still get your ward saves against is not that threatening)
At best they're magical artillery. At worst, because you only ever take them in units of 10, they're another drop during deployment + provide another channeling roll + can act as chaff if they get a crap spell.
If you add a Tzherald to them, just make him a Lv2 & take the Exalted Locus and leave it that. Tzheralds should never buy any Gift rolls because well, they're sucky wizards in combat backing up a unit of over-costed humans stat-wise!
DrunkPhilisoph wrote:2. At which point does it make sense to start including lord choices (greater demons)?
2b. Do demons suffer because they can't include
lvl 4s in low point games (everything under 2k)?
2bb. Does it make sense to buy a magician
DP?
Don't bother with the
LoC or 'Thirster until the 2400pts range or so... They need too much investment in Gifts/added magic levels (for the
LoC) to be worthwhile. The Kipper isn't terrible at 2k, but still not stellar... most of it's pts will likely go into magic levels. The
GUO on the other hand while slow, (only M6), can still be a force even with just giving him the Fencer's Blades and a couple Nurgle spells or a Death snipe.
If your opponents tend to run Augment/Hex-happy magic phases then yes, Daemons are most definitely at a big disadvantage without access to a Lv4. Dispelling at only +2 at best and having no Dispel Scroll is a huge kick in the face when Augments/Hexes are so powerful and game changing.
If your opponents are typically the type to simply 6-dice the spell they really want to go off each phase, then lack of access to a Lv4 is obviously much less of an issue, since your opponent is simply aiming for IF'ing a key spell.
Our Daemon Princes outside of Nurgle ones are about the biggest running joke in the game. If you want to save yourself severe heartache and disappointment, then don't go and look at the
WoC version...
A pair of cheap Princes though can have some results, as long as your opponent is the type to lose their head and panic at the sight of seeing 2 large monsters.
Overall though, they're not hard to take down, and ours are infinitely worse simply by virtue of being subject to Daemonic Instability, unlike the
WoC ones who are Unbreakable.
Depends on the rest of your army... An Epidemius list definitely loves it's Nurgle stone thrower for building up early Tally counts. On the other hand, a Tzeentch-heavy army would rather have the flame thrower to make Warpflame much less of an issue. (since it can be bad news bears very quickly if you're not careful)
A mixed army or Khorne/Slaanesh-heavy though is happy enough with just the Daemonbone Claw upgrade, which honestly is pretty much an auto-take to begin with!
Kind of a combination False/unneeded actually...
VC units can still make use their General's Inspiring Presence rule, and Slicing Shards doesn't stipulate that units use their unmodified
Ld for the tests. (so those low
Ld Skellies and the like are still
Ld-General if they're in range)
Most of the super dangerous
VC units not only truck about near the army General, but tend to have decent saves to boot.
Sure it's likely decent vs. a flanking Terrorghiest, but you can achieve a crapload more with spells like Acquiesence or Caco. Inflicting units with Random Movement (
D6) is laughably good and is what really makes Slaanesh magic shine. (why bother killing the tarpit when you can make it go absolutely nowhere?!)
No unit champs in the army can take Gifts. And if they could, the 25pts wouldn't be worth it in most cases because our units are already expensive enough as it is...
DrunkPhilisoph wrote:6. Can the army survive without an 'anvil' (e.g. multiple small units of daemonettes for core)?
If you take lots of Beasts go and beatstick stuff, then it's possible to survive without any infantry anvils. (Beasts are the best unit in the book, hands down)
Mono-Tzeentch runs 0 anvils since Horrors are so bad at it, and while it's not a competitive army by any means, outside of facing tournament lists it can compete if you stuff enough magic/Screamers/Burning Chariots/Grinders into it. (vs. most tourney lists though you do start to really miss that reliable Plaguebearer anvil)
If you go
MSU Core, then in a more competitive approach you're probably looking at something like;
3x 10-man Horrors (1-2 of which led by Tzheralds w/Exalted Locus)
2x 15-18 Daemonettes, 1 unit carrying the +1M banner for M7 and the other possibly toting either a Gleaming Pennant or Flaming banner.
Plaguebearers are also easily good enough to work well with only units of 15-20, simply because they're the single best Core unit we have... T4/5++ and -1 to-hit in combat is among the tops in the game for Core units, and they're decently costed. (could probably do with being a point more expensive honestly...)
Just avoid
MSU Bloodletters unless you like giving away 'free'
VP's to your opponent... 'Letters are the best example of the 'go big or go home' type of unit. It's 40+ or bust with them, simply because they die like elves to shooting/direct damage spells.
5++ doesn't save them when their only damage output in return is hitting things in combat - at least Daemonettes bring better/cheaper Locii and a Herald who can 1D6 Miasma to either nuke an opponent's movement or
WS.
