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Raven Guard Chapter Tactic, Strike from the Shadows:

Models in this detachment have the scout special rule. ....(stuff about stealth)... note that units that include models with the bulky or very bulky special rules do not benefit from either rule.

Scout USR, BRB:

After both sides have deployed, (including infiltrators) but before the player begins his first turn, a unit containing at least one model with this special rule can choose to redeploy....

Now, by standard Centurions wouldn't get Scout from their Chapter Tactics. But if you were to add a RG IC without Terminator armour (and therefore not bulky, and receiving Scout) would he then confer that on to his unit, allowing for scouting Centurions, with dedicated transport LRC's or outflanking?

I see two lines of debate here - is there a Codex overrules BRB point to be made, or is it technically irrelevant because that only applies to the Chapter Tactic?

Thoughts?

Although the unit has the Scout special rule (from the IC) the unit does not benefit from it.

This is similar to when 6th edition first came out, Valkyries gained no benefit from the Scout special rule (which was later dropped entirely).

Looks legit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
Although the unit has the Scout special rule (from the IC) the unit does not benefit from it.

This is similar to when 6th edition first came out, Valkyries gained no benefit from the Scout special rule (which was later dropped entirely).

I read that as they don't get the Scout rule via Chapter Tactics, but they can make the move if a model with the rule is joined to them.

They aren't gaining it from the Chapter Tactics, they are getting from the Character who does get it from Chapter Tactics.


I'd fully expect an FAQ denying this loophole though, but it appears to me that RAW you can bypass it.

 Happyjew wrote:
Although the unit has the Scout special rule (from the IC) the unit does not benefit from it.

This is similar to when 6th edition first came out, Valkyries gained no benefit from the Scout special rule (which was later dropped entirely).

The unit is not benefiting from the Chapter Tactic directly though. They're benefiting from the dynamics of the USR.

I do think its silly that Raven Guard bikes and Assault Marines can't benefit from their special rule. Its counter-intuitive.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I do think its silly that Raven Guard bikes and Assault Marines can't benefit from their special rule. Its counter-intuitive.

Not only in game terms (for all the good Jump Infantry are the only reason not to take K.WS instead is stealth first turn) but also in fluff, I mean the iconic unit of the RG can't scout but Shrike can infiltrate, because 'reasons'? Eh?

It must have been an oversight. They were probably thinking "Hey, its not fluffy for Terminators and Centurions to be Infiltrating." And completely derped that Assault Marines are also bulky.

And to further the wierdness, Assault Marines are ok if they ditch their Jump Packs.

So the IC joins the unit of centurions during deployment.

Fine fair enough i'll go with that after all you are allowed to.

Under the rules for IC's it states they become a memberof that unit for all rules purposes unless specifically stated other wise

So now they are in a unit with excluded model types so they also loose the special rule.

wargamer1985 wrote:
So the IC joins the unit of centurions during deployment.

Fine fair enough i'll go with that after all you are allowed to.

Under the rules for IC's it states they become a memberof that unit for all rules purposes unless specifically stated other wise

So now they are in a unit with excluded model types so they also loose the special rule.

That is not how it works.

The rule is that models gain the Scout rule unless they are Bulky or Very Bulky. If the IC is neither it will have Scout. Being with Bulky or Very Bulky model's will not change that.

Then, because Scout happens even if only 1 model has the rule, the Centurions can benefit.

 Grey Templar wrote:

wargamer1985 wrote:
So the IC joins the unit of centurions during deployment.

Fine fair enough i'll go with that after all you are allowed to.

Under the rules for IC's it states they become a memberof that unit for all rules purposes unless specifically stated other wise

So now they are in a unit with excluded model types so they also loose the special rule.

That is not how it works.

The rule is that models gain the Scout rule unless they are Bulky or Very Bulky. If the IC is neither it will have Scout. Being with Bulky or Very Bulky model's will not change that.

Then, because Scout happens even if only 1 model has the rule, the Centurions can benefit.

Except the unit cannot benefit from the Scout special rule nor the first turn Stealth special rule as the unit contains Very Bulky models.

Why not?

The rule is that models with Bulky or Very Bulky don't get Scout.

But the IC without Bulky/Very Bulky does. And the rule only requires 1 model in the unit to have it. Thus they can make the scout move.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Why not?

The rule is that models with Bulky or Very Bulky don't get Scout.

No the rule says the unit does not benefit from the rule. They still have the Scout special rule.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The rule is that models with Bulky or Very Bulky don't get Scout.

I'm pretty sure it says "..units containing models with the bulky..." Or something similar, don't get scout.

AUNIT that includes MODELS

A IC that joins the unit during deployment as per the brb is a member of the unit

 grendel083 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
The rule is that models with Bulky or Very Bulky don't get Scout.

I'm pretty sure it says "..units containing models with the bulky..." Or something similar, don't get scout.

Brief sum-up of the rule:

Models with Chapter Tactics (Raven Guard) have the Stealth special rule in the first game turn and the Infiltrate special rule. Units containing models with the (Very) Bulky special rule do not benefit from either rule.

This tells us that while the IC and the Centaurions have the Scout special rule, they cannot benefit from it (which also means no Outflanking).

Squads (with bulky units) benefiting from an IC with scout (general rule) is preempted by the IC loosing scout as soon as he joins a unit with bulky models (specific rule).

 d-usa wrote:
Squads (with bulky units) benefiting from an IC with scout (general rule) is preempted by the IC loosing scout as soon as he joins a unit with bulky models (specific rule).

Except the IC does not lose Scout. The unit just cannot benefit from it. As I pointed out earlier, everyone in the unit has Scout. The unit cannot benefit from it however.

I would have thought if you wanted to Scout Terminators or Centurions, you'd just take Khan as your warlord and buy the squad a dedicated land raider.

 Happyjew wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Squads (with bulky units) benefiting from an IC with scout (general rule) is preempted by the IC loosing scout as soon as he joins a unit with bulky models (specific rule).

Except the IC does not lose Scout. The unit just cannot benefit from it. As I pointed out earlier, everyone in the unit has Scout. The unit cannot benefit from it however.

100% right as far as I can tell.

 Happyjew wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Squads (with bulky units) benefiting from an IC with scout (general rule) is preempted by the IC loosing scout as soon as he joins a unit with bulky models (specific rule).

Except the IC does not lose Scout. The unit just cannot benefit from it. As I pointed out earlier, everyone in the unit has Scout. The unit cannot benefit from it however.

brb page 39 independant character paragraph 6

While an independant character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.

csm page 78relevant entry states

Models in this detachment have the scout special rule. Yaddda yadda yadda. Note that units that include models with the bulky or very bulky special rules do not benefit from either rule.

So the charcter joins the unit during deployment and therefor looses the rule.

Again, he does not lose it. Every model in the unit has the Scout special rule (including the centurions). They just do not benefit from it.