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I know a zooming transport cannot offload troops. Can I bring a transport in from reserves using the hover rule, and have passengers disembark that turn? The transport in question is a Storm Raven, and in order for it to come on the board, it has to move more than 6" as the model is more than 6" long. Transport rules say the unit inside cannot disembark if the transport moves more than 6".

Thoughts?

Think you've covered everything.
You can't move a Storm Raven onto the table with Combat Speed (hovering).
You'd need to go on with cruising speed, and then you can't deploy normally.

Only way is to make use of the Skies of Fury rule.

Yeah same with the valkyrie. I would say you are right in that they cannot disembark first turn. It would have to have some special rule like the valkyrie's letting do so. But this is all hypothetical right, just for research? It would be a shame to unload in your deployment when the flier can get to the other side of the board to unload next turn. :p

Nope, I had some infiltrators on his board edge and he really wanted them dead, so he tried deploying them the minute the storm raven came on. I think he was also worried about me blowing the transport to hell before he got the chance to unload the passengers. =)

Thanks for the responses.

As far as i can tell though there is nothing stopping him from coming on in hover mode 6 " and then make a 90 degree turn so the base is entirely on the table and then disembark?

Alternately, he could have zoomed on and then used the Storm Ravens special rule to disembark?

Th0rh4mm3r wrote:
As far as i can tell though there is nothing stopping him from coming on in hover mode 6 " and then make a 90 degree turn so the base is entirely on the table and then disembark?

Because you can't fit the SR on the board with only a 6 inch move. the Hull needs to be fully on the board, not just the base.

Alternately, he could have zoomed on and then used the Storm Ravens special rule to disembark?

This he could have done.

While looking into this for something constructive to add (I found nothing, its all been said here) I did come across a related question.

a flyer that is hovering is treated exactly as a fast skimmer . Does this mean that by RAW the vehicle in hover mode can't end its move over another model?

 DJGietzen wrote:
While looking into this for something constructive to add (I found nothing, its all been said here) I did come across a related question.

a flyer that is hovering is treated exactly as a fast skimmer . Does this mean that by RAW the vehicle in hover mode can't end its move over another model?

As long as the Hull is one inch from an enemy models base, or not resting on a friendly models base then the SR is cleared for moving there.

I get your logic there, but I am focusing on the last paragraph under moving skimmers on page 83

The one that says "If a Skimmer is forced to end its move over friendly or enemy models..." (83)

What about it?

The skimmer is not forced to end its move over "friendly or enemy models" so there are no issues.

All that says is that you can not have your skimmers resting on a models base, they need to be on the table.

Flyers have to Zoom when entering the table anyway, so its moving a minimum of 18".

But yes, then Skies of Fury/Grav Chute/Invasion Beams/whatever else your flyers have can be used to disembark

 IHateNids wrote:
Flyers have to Zoom when entering the table anyway, so its moving a minimum of 18".

Could you cite where this rule is? I see that Flyers must start in Reserve, but not that they must enter from reserve while Zooming.

 IHateNids wrote:
Flyers have to Zoom when entering the table anyway, so its moving a minimum of 18".

But yes, then Skies of Fury/Grav Chute/Invasion Beams/whatever else your flyers have can be used to disembark

Flyers with hover must choose if they enter in hover or zooming when they arrive from reserves. Vehicles in hover do not need to move 18" to avoid crashing. Its all under "hover type" on pg81.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The one that says "If a Skimmer is forced to end its move over friendly or enemy models..." (83)

What about it?

The skimmer is not forced to end its move over "friendly or enemy models" so there are no issues.

All that says is that you can not have your skimmers resting on a models base, they need to be on the table.

The hull of a storm raven is huge, and way up off the table. Its very possible that you could, in hover mode end you move with a friendly model underneath it. Am I missing something? Why does it need to be "resting on a models base" for that model to be underneath it?

 DJGietzen wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The one that says "If a Skimmer is forced to end its move over friendly or enemy models..." (83)

What about it?

The skimmer is not forced to end its move over "friendly or enemy models" so there are no issues.

All that says is that you can not have your skimmers resting on a models base, they need to be on the table.

The hull of a storm raven is huge, and way up off the table. Its very possible that you could, in hover mode end you move with a friendly model underneath it. Am I missing something? Why does it need to be "resting on a models base" for that model to be underneath it?

Who cares how big the Hull is.

as long as the hull is not resting on an enemy model, or the base is not resting on an enemy model then you are golden.

This rule "If a Skimmer is forced to end its move over friendly or enemy models," (83) does not even come into effect because of this rule "Skimmers can move over friendly and enemy models, but they cannot end their move on top of either." (83)

when the SR's Hull is above another model it is not on top of it. on top would require physical contact.

Ok, I have to ask again. When have we ever been told that a model is 'underneath' another only if the 1st is physically touching the 2nd? Seems contrary to every other use of the word underneath in the BRB. I can physically fit a lot of things under a SR's hull but if that SR is hovering I see no permission for it to end its movement with those models underneath it.

Is it underneath as in under the overhanging wing?
Or underneath as in the model/base is placed on top of another model.
And is there a difference in terms of rules?

 grendel083 wrote:
Is it underneath as in under the overhanging wing?
Or underneath as in the model/base is placed on top of another model.
And is there a difference in terms of rules?

Its underneath the wing, or the tail, or the nose. Any part of the hull (why I mentioned how big the SR really is).

The base of the SR and the base of lets say the terminator are not touching

The only thing that comes close to what DeathReaper is saying is in the BRB FAQ. Flying swooming Monstrous Creatures can end their move over models that physically fit under it. This is only for FSMC and not skimmers though.

Here's another question that I don't have the faq to answer and I have been wondering for some time... How does Valkyrie Grav Chute Insertion play with the coming in from reserves? And after the deployment do they act as if they'd literally deep struck or as if they had been in a zooming flyer, etc...

 Yipyioh wrote:
Here's another question that I don't have the faq to answer and I have been wondering for some time... How does Valkyrie Grav Chute Insertion play with the coming in from reserves? And after the deployment do they act as if they'd literally deep struck or as if they had been in a zooming flyer, etc...

Grav Chute still works the same as it does at any other time. You still pick a point over which the model has moved.
If the valk has arrived from Reserve, then the unit will also count as arriving.
The unit won't be assaulting the turn they did it due to the Disembark/Deep Strike/Reserve rules.

 Yipyioh wrote:
Here's another question that I don't have the faq to answer and I have been wondering for some time... How does Valkyrie Grav Chute Insertion play with the coming in from reserves? And after the deployment do they act as if they'd literally deep struck or as if they had been in a zooming flyer, etc...

Its been a while since I looked at these rules, and I don't have the books with me at the moment so don't hold me to this but...

1)The grav chute will allow the models to disembark from a zooming flyer, even if that flyer has moved more then 6" this turn. This means the models may disembark the turn the unit arrives from reserves.
2)The grav chute does not deep strike your models, it only places them using the deep strike rules and mishap table. This is the part I'm most not sure about.

 DJGietzen wrote:
2)The grav chute does not deep strike your models, it only places them using the deep strike rules and mishap table. This is the part I'm most not sure about.

"as if Deep Striking onto that point"
True it's not a proper Deep Strike, there's no roll on the Mis-hap for example.
And the disembark rules are sufficient to prevent assaults, even if the deep strike restrictions were not to apply.

 DJGietzen wrote:
Ok, I have to ask again. When have we ever been told that a model is 'underneath' another only if the 1st is physically touching the 2nd? Seems contrary to every other use of the word underneath in the BRB. I can physically fit a lot of things under a SR's hull but if that SR is hovering I see no permission for it to end its movement with those models underneath it.

The English language clears it up. and it does not say "end its movement with those models underneath it." It says: "Skimmers can move over friendly and enemy models, but they cannot end their move on top of either." (83)

End on top of is different than "end its movement with those models underneath it."

You can not move on top of other models (Being on top of something requires physical contact), ending above them is something completely different than being on top of a model.

 grendel083 wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
2)The grav chute does not deep strike your models, it only places them using the deep strike rules and mishap table. This is the part I'm most not sure about.

"as if Deep Striking onto that point"
True it's not a proper Deep Strike, there's no roll on the Mis-hap for example.
And the disembark rules are sufficient to prevent assaults, even if the deep strike restrictions were not to apply.

Right. I was mostly curious after I saw my buddy's flamer vets get ripped to shreds. He came in from reserves, zoomed, grav chute inserted, and then when to shoot and the Eldar player insisted that he could only fire snap shots because he made it seem like it was a combo of both rules that made the models themselves count as having run or something. Twas quite confusing, and so the vets didn't get to fire their flamers or assault and as such were shredded by the entrenched Eldar. How should this have gone down correctly?

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:
Flyers have to Zoom when entering the table anyway, so its moving a minimum of 18".

Could you cite where this rule is? I see that Flyers must start in Reserve, but not that they must enter from reserve while Zooming.

Apologies, my mistake.

probably a fusion of Locked Velocity and the fact I don't have a hover flyer...

 Yipyioh wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
2)The grav chute does not deep strike your models, it only places them using the deep strike rules and mishap table. This is the part I'm most not sure about.

"as if Deep Striking onto that point"
True it's not a proper Deep Strike, there's no roll on the Mis-hap for example.
And the disembark rules are sufficient to prevent assaults, even if the deep strike restrictions were not to apply.

Right. I was mostly curious after I saw my buddy's flamer vets get ripped to shreds. He came in from reserves, zoomed, grav chute inserted, and then when to shoot and the Eldar player insisted that he could only fire snap shots because he made it seem like it was a combo of both rules that made the models themselves count as having run or something. Twas quite confusing, and so the vets didn't get to fire their flamers or assault and as such were shredded by the entrenched Eldar. How should this have gone down correctly?

They should have shot as if they had used the deep strike rules (As they disembark using the rules for deep strike).

So the flamer guys could shoot or run, but may not move any further and may not assault.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
Ok, I have to ask again. When have we ever been told that a model is 'underneath' another only if the 1st is physically touching the 2nd? Seems contrary to every other use of the word underneath in the BRB. I can physically fit a lot of things under a SR's hull but if that SR is hovering I see no permission for it to end its movement with those models underneath it.

The English language clears it up. and it does not say "end its movement with those models underneath it." It says: "Skimmers can move over friendly and enemy models, but they cannot end their move on top of either." (83)

End on top of is different than "end its movement with those models underneath it."

You can not move on top of other models (Being on top of something requires physical contact), ending above them is something completely different than being on top of a model.

What my books says, word for word. "If a Skimmer is forced to end its move over friendly or enemy models, move the skimmer the minimum distance so that no models are left underneath it."

Are we saying a vehicle can hover above a friendly model on purpose but not on accident?

So you do not have the sentence on Page 83 that says "Skimmers can move over friendly and enemy models, but they cannot end their move on top of either." (83)? Or is it in your book as well?

It is in my book. Moving Skimmers section 1st graph 1st sentence.

On top of means resting on the top of a model.

Clearly this has nothing to do with models not touching the hull of a SR.

 DeathReaper wrote:
So you do not have the sentence on Page 83 that says "Skimmers can move over friendly and enemy models, but they cannot end their move on top of either." (83)? Or is it in your book as well?

It is in my book. Moving Skimmers section 1st graph 1st sentence.

On top of means resting on the top of a model.

Clearly this has nothing to do with models not touching the hull of a SR.

No, I have that line, but the 3rd paragraph is the one I have issue with. It is written as if you cannot choose to end a skimmer's move with another model underneath it and describes what to do when circumstance would require you to do something that you normally cannot do. Makles me think "on top of " is meant to mean above not touching.

Have we ever seen anyhting that tells us that "on top of" means touching, or are we just guessing here?

 DJGietzen wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
So you do not have the sentence on Page 83 that says "Skimmers can move over friendly and enemy models, but they cannot end their move on top of either." (83)? Or is it in your book as well?

It is in my book. Moving Skimmers section 1st graph 1st sentence.

On top of means resting on the top of a model.

Clearly this has nothing to do with models not touching the hull of a SR.

No, I have that line, but the 3rd paragraph is the one I have issue with. It is written as if you cannot choose to end a skimmer's move with another model underneath it and describes what to do when circumstance would require you to do something that you normally cannot do. Makles me think "on top of " is meant to mean above not touching.

Have we ever seen anyhting that tells us that "on top of" means touching, or are we just guessing here?

The first line gives context to the section. "cannot end their move on top of either." (83) this tells us that when they say "If a Skimmer is forced to end its move over..." it means on top of. basically it can not end its move on top of other models.

Plus Basic English tells us that on top of requires contact.

If the "on top of" indicates physical contact, wouldn't being "underneath" a model also indicate physical contact?

zooming Flyers are permitted to end their movement with other models underneath the zooming Flyer so long as they fit underneath the model and enemy models must remain at least one inch away from the Flyers base.

I know of no rule that allows a Flyer in Hover mode to do this, as enemy models must remain at least one inch away from the hull, and skimmers are not considered to be above the battlefield, but on it.

I've played Eldar for over 9 years now, and have never seen any rule that would allow another model to be under a skimmer when the skimmer is finished moving, even if it fit.