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I've got a 1500pt game in 3 days time against GK, I've not faced them before. What sort of things do I need to look out for from a CSM point of view. And what would you consider as 'must have units'.

Any advice is welcomed

Depends on what he brings:

Lots of 2+: GK can field all terminators, and has an elite variant with 2 wounds.

Monsterhunter-Monsters: Dreadknight T6W4 can be made into a jumppack monstrous creature which can shunt 30' once a game. Can get upgrades to reroll wounds and to hit in CC. Can receive a 'torrent' flamethrower. Costs an arm and a leg.

Nobody expects the spanish inquisition: Cheaper IG- vets; Assassins+Crusaders = I5 with either S6AP2I1 or S4AP3I5 and some 3++ ablative wounds for pretty cheap.

Psicannons: S6Ap4 Ass2/Heavy4; rending, can be taken by pretty much any unit

Psi-buffs: All GK are psykers and can either heighten their strentgh or do ID.



GK have slight problems on the long range, and are all arround pretty pricy. You most likely will field more modells than him, and 3+ and 2+ saves at range are better, but nearly useless at CC.

Also Gk don't have as much options to deal with AV13 or 14.



If he doesn't field henchmen, you can outmaneuver him, and weaken him by concentrating on high threat targets (Dreadknight, Paladins).


Your dragons will do you as much service as normal, but probably even more. Spawns aren't as good because of the prevailance of ID. All high AP weapons are your friends.

As mentionned, you can expect fewer models then you have (basic GK is at least 20pts).

He has shunting units (the Dreadknight mentionned as well as another type)

He will have quite a lot of S5 (his stormbolters can be S5) as well as his melee attacks and he will have power weapons everywhere (which are force weapons).

They have quite a nice firepower but medium range only (few units have further range then 24", main exception is the Dreanought)

What aremy are you fielding?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry did not see you mentionned CSM.

Helldrakes will probably be good (GK are expensive marines for them...)

If you can get some long range (Havocs, some tanks) you will force them to move up field.

They have few units that can manage AA (the storm who is really expensive even though powerfull).

A nice nurgle list should do the trick i guess. (but not FMC)

GK are one of the most interesting armies in 40K imo. There are so many different builds available to the book that are not only super cool but several are quite good in a competitive sense.

It's going to depend on what kind of list your opponent decides to run, but GK are generally good against CSM. For each build you'll need to look out for different things...

Inguisitorial henchmen - This list will bring lots of vehicles filled with very small units of (USUALLY) Warrior Acolytes. They'll usually have Plasma or Melta weapons in there so if you're packing heavily armored infantry or vehicles, watch out. This list usually has Psyfleman Dreadnoughts for some more high strength weapons at a decent range.

Draigo based lists - You'll see Draigo being taken to unlock Paladins which are 2 wound terminators that will wreck face if you ever get too close. These lists often take Storm Ravens (although at 1500 its tough to pack all that in), or they'll take many units of 1 Paladin each or 2+ units of 5. These lists also make good use out of Psyfleman Dreads and/or Dreadknights which will tear any MCs a new one... Especially your Black Mace Nurgle Daemon Prince.

Purifiers - Here you'll see Crow leading his brotherhood of Purifiers (which are better PAGK that can take more heavy weapons). They spam Razorbacks with Psycannons, dudes with Psycannons (or incinerators). You'll see an ADL often, and again, Psyfleman Dreads and/or Dreadknights.

Other units to look out for are the Assassins (Vindicare is the best, he's a 36in threat bubble that will kill 1 vehicle or shave 2 wounds from a special character/MC per turn), Librarians that can move the assassins around or make those Purifier units hit even harder, and large groups of Death Cult Assassins assaulting any MEQ/GEQ unit and making them disappear before you get to swing back.

If you can keep out of 24in from this army you'll be good, but as CSM you're not great at that. Just hope they're packing PAGK and you can drop bird turds on them while holding on to some objective with your cultists. Don't get into CC with any PAGK or Terminator since they've all got power weapons or power weapons that let them strike at I6.

I think a nice juicy nurgle list would serve you fine, a defiler might be worthwhile if you have one to field as greyknight lists usually lack multiple pie plates of there own.(I play both csm and GK) And if you run typhus with plague zombies you could possibly in theory just drown them in models

As a long time GK player, I can attest to the "drown them in bodies" tactic. Its a horrible feeling to lose a game without losing a single model.

SJ

How do you think I would fare with this...

HQ- Lord, MoN, SoC, BboS, Power weapon (not sure which yet), Blight Grenades.
HQ - Sorc, Lvl 2, MoN, SoC, Blight Grenades.

Troops- 7 x Plague Marines, 2 x Plasma
Troops- 10 x Cultist
Troops- 10 x Cultist
Troops- 9 x CSM, 1 x Plasma Gun, Rhino.

Fast- Heldrake with Baleflamer

Heavy- 2 x Obliterators, Votlw, MoN
Heavy- 6 x Havocs, 2 x Autocannon, 2 x Lascannon
Heavy- 6 x Havocs, 2 x Autocannon, 2 x Lascannon

Aegis Defence Line with quad Lascannon.

Plan is to set up the havoc squads behind the ADL and have the Sorcerer there to bless them with something nice hopefully. Let the Heldrake do what it does best. Chuck the lord in the Rhino with the 9man squad, get mid field and shoot stuff up, retreating back as they advance. PM throwing out some hurt too. Obliterators, Deep strike or behind the ADL? Bring the Cultists on as late as I can. Or, just cross my fingers a lot...

Havocs with plasma guns will ruin the grey knights day, your termies can bully theirs nicely since they are usually all ap3 against your 2+ failing that, add some bread and ham to the grey knights and you've got yourself a tasty ham and cheese sandwhich

That's a good idea, I may try that one. I'm left with about 25 points, any thoughts on how I can spend those?

Thanks for the responses btw

One other thing to watch out for is a ghostwing, it revolves around a character who will deepstrike turn 1 without scatter and half his army will shunt 30" into your deployment zone (still on turn 1). The deepstrike unit will have a librarian with a teleport homer to bring in the second half of his army turn 2. If he takes a character called "Modrak" it will definitely happen. If it does, kill the librarian your first turn.

As a GK player, I'd hate to see the following when playing against Spikey Marines:


Plaguemarines (makes our Hammerhand + charge not as effective. Psybolt ammunition's advantage is taken away)

Thousand Sons (unless I'm running Termie army and even then cc phase gets cloggy)

Hell-turkey. (beware, may get hunted down by psybolt ammo)

Oblits (lascannon + plasma... I mean seriously?)

Cultists / zombies (see posts above)

If he gets a Dreadknight near your LR, which he will especially if it has a teleporter, expect the LR to go poof in a hurry.

Beware of Teleporter and Draigowing. I must say, the current CSM codex should be pretty good against GK - CSM are a bit one-sided atm (Heldrake & MoN Marines) but those are exactly the counter for GK.

Mark of Nurgle CSM - As counter to their Psycannons, Psybolts and Psyflemen. Best troop choice you can take imho.
Do not take Cultists, they die too easily to GK dakka and Incinerators.

Heldrake - One is already so annoying that I don't want to use GK in Power Armour anymore, the one and only counter a GK has against this is the Aegis Defence Line, preferrably with an Vindicare Assassin.

Then there are Henchmen, they can take a hell lot of anti-armour (which GK are usually lacking), but Lascannons are expensive (only on Jokaeros) and Henchmen tend to die very quickly.

If they aren't in chimeras, a Terminator Squad with Flamer wipe them in one blow ...

Dreadknights can be extremely annoying - I suppose Chaos doesn't have any Poison AP2 weapons? A hidden Force Axe (if possible?) in melee can be usefull - else a lot of Plasma shots.


Take some CSM with Mark of Nurgle as objective holders, one or more Heldrakes - rest is up to you, maybe Terminators with a Lord (and MoN) ... yep, it's the list everyone plays I think!?

Anything behind an ADL doesn't get a cover save from flamers so I'm not too worried about that in regards to the heldrake. I'm guessing that Assassins are a common choice with GK then? I've not long been back in to 40k, last time I fought one was in early 3rd Ed.

The only reason I have cultists in there is for late objective grabbing. Still not recommended?

If I was to stick a MoT on the havocs, does that +1 invul confer to cover saves, giving them a 3+ behind the ADL?

Cultists will be fine if you protect them.
If he takes care of them its either less shooting on your real units or the shunting DK which is a shame to waste on cultists.

The +1 is on invul save not on cover save so it wont work with ADL unfortunately.

Also a GK player, I absolutely abhor Drakes.
I have plenty of Terminators, but I love to use PAGK, especially Purifiers, they are my favorite fluffy-wise and to see them get roasted by freakin Drakes. I lost the last game I played vs CSM because of the darn thing. Oblits are a pain too.
So, Plague Marines, Drakes, and Oblits are the thing that ruins my day the most.

Also, I don't know how this GK player plays, but if you were facing me you might need to watch out for the Purgation Squads with 4 S6 AP4 Flamers if you're running cultists. I've toasted a full unit of cultists ina single turn with my Incinerators before.

I did think that with the MoT, turns out I was thinking of the invul that you get from the Skyshield pad.

It's great to hear from a few GK players btw, all of your input is greatly appreciated

In the list I have 9 x CSM in a Rhino with a Nurgle Lord, with the points left over I can either give them all the MoN or swap the squad out for another 7 x Plague Marines. Which would you suggest or be most regretful to see on the field?

Plague marines are generally considered better then CSM with MoN (as long as you have a nurgle lord to make them troops).

As mentionned earlier, what is most difficult for a GK against CSM is the "good" units of CSM anyway (Plaguemarines, Helldrakes and Oblits/Havocs).

As long as you dont try to outshoot them whithin 24", you should stand a good chance.

CSM is the (first) codex that made GK not broken anymore as purifier spam means just expensive PA guys to get roasted by your turkeys.

You can mitigate it as a GK with termies (as you can have them as troops) but they are expensive for what they bring (the only point of termies is facing hellturkey spam IMO).

Also unless he has a fully motorised GK army (spam razorback with acolytes or small GK squads) or lots of shunting troops (DK and interceptors) he will likely have a slow footslogging army so you should try to manage his army bit by bit while staying outside of his 24" main firepower.

Ah and dont try to Deepstrike, it will be pointless either with his troops or Coteaz he will make some mishaps or will have a free turn to shoot them (kind of like interception in 12" of his special character and can be used as many times a turn as you have DS units....)

I would not recommend cultists, I'd rather use MoN Marines for objective holding. Yes, sending a DK against Cultists seems like a waste ... but if that DK is scoring and takes your objective - it's definitely not

The question is if you have that much standard marine models to represent, if not ... take cultists and hope the GK player doesn't bring shunting incinerator troops (imho they are one of the only viable lists currently - they are very expensive, but they make our GKs being in your face turn 1 reliably and without sacrificing assault - it wreaks havoc on everything)

In my last game I played against dark angels, using 2 of my old dreadnoughts with flyer bases as counts-as (not gonna buy that ugly DK models) with Heavy Incinerator and Teleporter and a Draigowing with an extra Inquisitor - rest of the troops were standard terminators. He could not do anything about his misery.

But I think what won the game alone were those DKs, with teleporter being in combat on turn 1 there is nothing you can do except mass AP2 spam (preferrably poison). They are somehow the aequivalent of a drake on foot

They are the equivalent of a drake except that :
- they are far more fragile
- they dont have AP3

They cant charge after the shunt so if you shunt 2 DK turn 1, he will fire everything on them and likely kill at least one.

Then indeed you will charge Turn 2 and kill a unit without much issue.

DK are indeed the GK's biggest threat usually but they are not so solid unfortunately with sufficient firepower.

DrunkPhilisoph wrote:
Depends on what he brings:

Lots of 2+: GK can field all terminators, and has an elite variant with 2 wounds.

Monsterhunter-Monsters: Dreadknight T6W4 can be made into a jumppack monstrous creature which can shunt 30' once a game. Can get upgrades to reroll wounds and to hit in CC. Can receive a 'torrent' flamethrower. Costs an arm and a leg.

Nobody expects the spanish inquisition: Cheaper IG- vets; Assassins+Crusaders = I5 with either S6AP2I1 or S4AP3I5 and some 3++ ablative wounds for pretty cheap.

Psicannons: S6Ap4 Ass2/Heavy4; rending, can be taken by pretty much any unit

Psi-buffs: All GK are psykers and can either heighten their strentgh or do ID.



GK have slight problems on the long range, and are all arround pretty pricy. You most likely will field more modells than him, and 3+ and 2+ saves at range are better, but nearly useless at CC.

Also Gk don't have as much options to deal with AV13 or 14.



If he doesn't field henchmen, you can outmaneuver him, and weaken him by concentrating on high threat targets (Dreadknight, Paladins).


Your dragons will do you as much service as normal, but probably even more. Spawns aren't as good because of the prevailance of ID. All high AP weapons are your friends.

I think you men 30 , inches not feet lol

I'm just going to shunt my DK to that table over there...