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I play 40k, and I have wanted to try fantasy, but I can't afford any more GW bs. I want to know if Kings of War is fun and if it will cost any more or less. Thanks in advance.

The rules are free on their website. I have played fantasy for a long time and these rules seem simplified compared to GW's game. While I haven't played KoW, it looks very good to me. Looks like it plays a lot faster than GW's as well.

I play it on an average of twice to three times a week.

Very fun - similar, but by no means identical to Warhammer.

Rules are simple - a unit is treated as if it were a single model. There is a stat block for the entire unit.

SP is how far the unit can move, Me is what the unit needs on a D6 in order to hit in melee, Ra is what the unit needs on a D6 to hit at range (modified by distance), De is what an enemy needs to roll to overcome the units Defence, At is how many D6 the unit rolls when attacking (either melee ir ranged), Ne is the Nerve thresholds for the unit.
All rolls are done by the active player.

As mentioned, most of the rules are Free On Their Site. The free rules are missing the optional rules for campaigns and sieges as well as most (but not all) of the magic items.


Nerve.... is possibly the most important stat. When you wound an enemy unit then at the end of the phase, or the end of melee if there was any melee combat, you roll 2d6 and add the amount of damage that the unit has taken during the game.

If the total is higher than the Wavering threshold but below the Rout threshold then the unit is Wavering and is limited in what it can do, only being able to Halt, Back, or Change Facing - it can't even Shoot if it began the turn Wavering.

If the total is higher than the Rout threshold then the unit is removed from the table.

If the total is lower than either than the unit is Steady, and is unaffected.

Games take around a third to half as long as Warhammer - and I have never seen a rules argument.

Magic and most missile combat are support roles - softening the units up for melee, which tends to be where units are driven from the table.

Models are less expensive - though there is disagreement about how the models look. The elves are very skinny - almost spiderlike. The dwarfs are very square, with guns and cannon that look almost 19th century. Most people agree that their undead are their best looking models.

So far the only models that really disappointed me are the Men at Arms that were recently released.

Overall... I prefer the KoW rules to Warhammer - not having rules arguments is a very nice thing.

The Auld Grump

I haven't gotten to play, but I thought that I would chime in on a couple of things that make the game interesting to me.

Since a unit is treated as a single entity, the concept of removing casualties does not exist in KoW. This opens up multi/unit-basing. Of course, you could do your models just like WHFB and use them for both games, why not. But if you plan to stick just to KoW you could multibase your army.

There are a few prominent advantages to doing so, if you don't need cross-game viability. These are:

*You may have seen some unit filler in WHFB regiments? Forget it, multibases give you a lot of freedom in arranging your soldiers, leaving a few out to allow for better poses (and eventually saving enough dudes for another unit, etc)

*they make an already fast game faster, plop your multibase down and done, forget that silly ranking up stuff that takes forever

*This is a bit more preference, but I think they let you arrange your models in a more scenic/dynamic way, potentially integrating some scenery etc.

I also *really* like that every unit in the game has the same basic type of stat line, and that virtually everything is handled the same way. Know how to resolve shooting? Good, you also know how magic works, as well as artillery. Heroes don't seem to join units (I may be wrong here!), but some heroes are more powerful than a unit all on their own! The mummy king/lord/whatever comes to mind. he has a nerve around 20 something, I think, with the more basic footsoldiers having something in the low teens.

Right now, I'm more of a scifi-nerd. But if I had someone to regularly play games with and they wanted to play a fantasy game... KoW would be my choice for sure. Now if they would just draft an official *not-Skaven* force...

Kings of war is great fun!

It's simple, fast and very tactical. The only people I know who don't like it, don't like it because it's not WFB.

A phrase I often hear is that in KoW, you're playing the game and not the rulebook. Asides from stats and looking up the odd situation or special rule I can guarantee that you won't need to refer to the rulebook after the first couple of turns. The game is well balanced with most units being "competitive" but there are a few duds (Elf Seaguard) and some which could do with a slight points bump (heavy cavalry). Overall, you've got great freedom to build an army that revolves around the tactics that you want to employ rather than there being a few "competitive" builds but little freedom if you want an army that works well on the tabletop.

The games are much quicker than WFB as noted, you can generally fit in two games of KoW in the same time as one in WFB.

In terms of cost, the rules are free on the website and Mantic give out the printed mini-rulebooks with almost everything. I'm sure if you emailed one of the Mantic guys (mark.wallace@manticgames.com would be a good one) then they'll post you out a free rulebook or ask you to just pay for postage. The hardback book costs £25 and is well worth it, but not essential when you're first getting started.

Miniatures wise, Mantics minis generally cost between 25%-50% of their GW equivalents and you'll normally spend between £100 and £150 on a "full size" army and have a few units left over to swap out between games for variety. The current "special offers" army deals are great value: http://www.manticgames.com/Shop-Home/Special-Offers.html

An average "full size" game seems to be around 1600 points although the game scales very well from 500 points upwards. Ilona's Death Guard is £100 and comes to around 1600 points, and Grak's Skull-taker Horde is £150 and comes to 1600. The two player starter set is currently on offer at £40 from Mantic and as you'd expect is a fantastic introduction with a good variety of units.

If you like to play games... instead of debate rules.. then KoW is great.

I have an Undead army, Kingdom of Men army, and Ogre army, as well as a small Dwarf army.. and for the VAST majority of the figs.. all are GW. Helps that you can get fantastic deals in the Swap Shop or bartertown..

Mantic does not CARE where the figs come from. I THINK that in their tournaments there is no requirement for their own figures.

I have also never been in a blow-out game.. each game of KoW I have played comes down to the wire (or close to it).. there does not seem to be an "Uber" build or race.

-P

 porkuslime wrote:
If you like to play games... instead of debate rules.. then KoW is great.

I have an Undead army, Kingdom of Men army, and Ogre army, as well as a small Dwarf army.. and for the VAST majority of the figs.. all are GW. Helps that you can get fantastic deals in the Swap Shop or bartertown..

Mantic does not CARE where the figs come from. I THINK that in their tournaments there is no requirement for their own figures.

I have also never been in a blow-out game.. each game of KoW I have played comes down to the wire (or close to it).. there does not seem to be an "Uber" build or race.

-P

I think that for tourneys they have a 50% rule - unless an army has no Mantic figures available.

I have been in a few 'blow-out' games - typically the first few games of a player that used to play Warhammer will try something that just does not work.

Then they get enough of a grip that the problem goes away. (I have not seen any blow-outs for new-new players - it is the ones that play, oh, orcs and goblins in Fantasy.

The Auld Grump

Played a few low point games in a hour we got three games in.
Very Very fun and simple.

Allowing you to use ANY mini is great!

Its also a breath of fresh air from 40k, Game is a little more relaxing and straight forward.

Depends on what you enjoy.

Its rules are very, very simple compared to Fantasy, without losing any depth. Pretty much all the good parts condensed into a few pages - and you'll be amazed that this can be done so simply and easily. The game is more organic, with less hard counters, less stat memorization etc that characterize stuff from the GW range.

The downside is that the models are generally not as good (though far cheaper) and the game can be less exciting (in the michael bay explosions everywhere fashion).

If your sick of GW nonsense then you'll likely enjoy this. If your not sick of it, you'll still likely enjoy it. I suggest you try a trial game or three - set aside maybe two hours and you'll have plenty of time for multiple games even as you learn the rules

I playtested the rules and I found them relaxing. I dont have to look for FAQs and hundreds of pages.

I can definitely say that the KoW rules are very fun. I played a game a couple of weeks ago in our local club, and was able to teach 2 players the basics of the game very quickly, although their slowness with the rules (and my rustiness and forgetfulness of the 'Inspiring' rule) made the game take a couple of hours.

Overall, I can recommend KoW 10/10, it is now my go-to fantasy ruleset, with Wotr coming second.

I had a new guy try it out and he had the hang of it almost instantly. Only reason he didn't kill me was because he wanted to have more fun nuking a unit of mine in CC instead of flying around flaming my units from behind. Abyssals vs ogres, he had Abyssals. He's itching to play again.

If you're concerned about GW's price you could use the mantic, they're cheaper and look nearly as good.

I haven't played KOW but it seems decent if you like big battles.

Late to the party, but I think KoW is alot of fun. I played it last week and had a great time. It's isn't as "deep" as WHFB simply because it's a simpler rulesystem. Because of this units will never seem quite as unique as in WHFB because there aren't as many stats, rules and special rules. However, I've found that the gameplay doesn't suffer, in fact it plays faster than GW rules because of the streamlining, and still feels very tactical with units being plenty differentiated enough for me.

The only caution I would give is that folks who prefer the more in-depth nature of magic in GW rules might not like KoW's very simple approach to Magic, but that's more a personal prefference for some folks than a real critique of the rules. As there really isn't a mantic tournament scene and most seem to allow any figs, I'd say just go with whatever figs you like. Last weeks game was 1500 points and featured my evil army made of Battlemasters (i.e. early 90's GW designs), GW, Confrontation and a few other companies vs my opponents union of Dark Elves and Clan War Samurai. Batrep coming soon.

All that said, if you just want a fantasy game, and don't have much $, try Song of Blades and Heroes. cheap rules, fast playing, 8-12 figs per side and freedom to use whatever minis you want.

Out of interest, what army do you guys proxy Chaos Warriors, Beastmen and Daemons for?

Daemons are easy: they're the abyssal army. It comes in the Basilean legacy book, and has lesser Abyssals (lesser daemons), mounted abyssal cav (like seekers), big infantry (think fiends or beasts of Nurgle), big cavalry (bloodcrushers), fiends (princes/greater daemons), and chosen Abyssals (heralds). Also has gargoyles/furies. The descriptions are obviously different, but the comparison listed will give you the appropriate style of models.

Beastmen are easily counts-as Orcs. Warriors of Chaos are a tough one. Kingdoms of Men would be the most generically suitable I think. Chaos Warriors count-as Foot Guard, marauders as Shield Walls or Pole-Arms Blocks.

Kingdoms of Men is definitely the best choice for Warriors of Chaos. As Human armies are neutral, you can always grab units from one of the other "Evil" armies to represent certain units if you're not happy with the way the Kingdoms of Man army represents them. My "Bad Guys" human army uses the KoM list and it works well for all the Chaos Battlemasters figs I'm using.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Daemons are easy: they're the abyssal army. It comes in the Basilean legacy book, and has lesser Abyssals (lesser daemons), mounted abyssal cav (like seekers), big infantry (think fiends or beasts of Nurgle), big cavalry (bloodcrushers), fiends (princes/greater daemons), and chosen Abyssals (heralds). Also has gargoyles/furies. The descriptions are obviously different, but the comparison listed will give you the appropriate style of models.

Ah, okay. I hadn't looked properly (more browsed) and assumed they were only the Chaos Dwarf analogue. I can see Orcs working for Beastmen. Trolls for Minotaurs? What are the asterisks on some unit entries all about?

How would one go about putting together an "old-school Warhammer Chaos" army in KoW? As in either all three categories (Daemons, Beastmen, Men - even including Chaos Dwarves as well for a Slaves to Darkness-style army, which I'd love to create) combined or even just mortals (Warriors and Beastmen)? Pick a core and add allies?

The abyssal list (different to the abyssal dwarf list) isn't up on the website yet, although there are some units in the twilight kin list. The abyssal dwarf list is essentially chaos dwarfs.

In KoW for army composition, every 'solid' unit allows you to take up to 1 hero and 1 warmachine. A solid unit is a unit of 20 or more infantry, 10+ cavalry etc. Units marked with an asterisk never count as solid.

And yes you would just use a core army list and allies. Normally you only have 1 allied list but I'm sure most reasonable opponents (and I've yet to meet an unreasonable KoW player) would have no problem with you using two allies.

The allied force has to stick to the same composition requirements as the core force - I.e. you can only have an allied hero if one of your allied units is solid.

Yeah, I've got the Basliean book, but hadn't looked at it at all until today. I'd just assumed that "Abyssal" was shorthand for "Abyssal (Not-Chaos) Dwarves". A Chaos army is awhile off yet, but since my fantasy chaos collection encompasses all of the branches of models, and more importantly, my already-painted stuff is a mix of the different types, that would be the fastest way to get something playable on the table for that theme.

I use the Orc for both "chaos warriors" and "beastmen". Here's my 2000 point list with the "counts as" for my Red Box Games / Mierce army. a + denotes an ally


2000 point Helsvakt and Fomoraic Horde 125 Gynnade Krigare Orc Ax 125 Gynnade Krigare Orc Ax 175 Helsvakt Hordesmen Orc Morax 175 Beastmen Orc Morax 150 Helsriders and Dire Wolves Orc Gore Riders Regiment 215 Tarvax Regiment +Ogre Regiment 240 Sronax Regiment +Ogre Regiment, Brew of Strength 60 Magaan, Warlock of Baalor +Human Wizard 125 Ckaarakk, Untain of the Tarvax +Ogre Captain 30 Tundaar, Skull-Bearer of Baalor Flagger 120 Aanchuth the Cursed, warlock Wip the Half Cast 140 Kraan, Tain of Balor Krudger on Gore 145 Galagaak Ox-Gore Krudger on Gore Chariot 175 Shaaroc, Reviled Drackox Krudger on Gore Chariot w/ Ensorcelled Armor

What did you use to make up that list? Is it an army builder?

I am looking for one which will allow me to name a unit, have the original units name, the unit cost and then the stats plus whatever other magic I add in. I think Armybuilder might let me do this.

I am thinking for my Ysian army I will use the Orc rules with Kingdoms of Men allies. I think it'd break down like this;

Ysian's - Orcs

Ax's - Modded Mierce Ax-Drunes perhaps
Greatax's - Ysian Ax-Drunes or Rackham Drune Karnagh's/Persecutor's
Morax's - Ideally Red Box Games Helsvakt Hordesmen with two handweapons
Sniffs - Rackham Sessairs Centaurs or Mounted Bow-Drunes
Trolls - Modded Mantic Trolls (bigger legs and heads)
Orclings - Some kind of weird spawn I guess? I dunno
Gore Riders - Rackham Drune Horned Riders
Fight Wagon - Modded chariot pulled by a Gorebeast looking miniature
Gore Chariot - Modded chariot with either horses or some kind of other beast.
Gakamak the Smasher - Carrowek of Carn Dhu (foot and mounted versions depending)
Krudger - Mierce Ulric the defiler or mounted Kernuor
Krudger on Slasher - Mierce Ulmons
Krudger on Winged Slasher - Rackham Drune or Mierce Ysian on Ungefelic
Flagger - Mierce Mawdred of Carn Dhu on foot, Modded for mounted version
Giant - Rackham Flesh Golem
Wip the Half-Cast - Kelen the Thirteenth Voice or Mierce Kernuor on foot
Krudger on Gore Chariot - Rackham Wandyr the Bloodthirst on Chariot

Drunes - Kingdoms of Men

Shield Wall/Militia Mob/Penitents Mob - Rackham Warriors of Caer Maed
Pole-Arms Block - Rackham Sessairs Warriors of Avaggdu
Missile Troops Block (bows only) - Mierce Bow-Drunes
Ogres - Rackham Formor Fiends
Ogre Shooters - Hordes Legion of Everblight Ogrun Warspears
Mounted Sergeants - Red Box Games Helsriders
Trebuchet - McFarlane Toys Gemini half with additional Mierce Drune-Goader Unit (alternative Hellcannon)
General - Rackham Drune Gwahyr the Merciless
General on Winged Beast - Mierce Norse Grimmin
Hero - Rackham Drune Feylhin the Savage
'The Captain' - Virae, the Queen of Fiannas
Ogre Captain - Rackham Drune Balkron, Formor Champion or Sessairs Koren, the Chosen One
Wizard - Rackham Drune Corwyn the Hunchback or Kelt Sessairs Kelen the Thirteenth Voice
Priest - Rackham Damrahl, Drune Wyrd or Drune Soul Snatcher

Not sure I would take anything else from the Kingdoms of Men list, as it would not likely go together (especially things like cannons and the like).

Also, I think if you wanted to do an evil version of the Basilean list, you could very easily do so;

Undead Army of Basilea (or whatever their antithesis is)

Men-at-Arms with Spear and Shield or Sword and Shield -> Skeletons with spears or swords
Crossbowmen -> Skeletons with either crossbows or bows
Heavy Arbalest -> Bolt thrower with Skeleton crew
Paladin Foot Guard -> Revenants with two-handed weapons
Paladin Knights -> Soul Reavers
Sisterhood Infantry -> Ghouls
Panther Lancers -> Revenant Cavalry
Panther Chariot -> Chariot base with direwolves and bats on it
Elohi -> Elohi with GW skeleton heads (they're bigger) and green stuffed hoods, and scythes
Phoenixes -> Unsure...
Dictator -> Wight
High Paladin -> Vampire
High Paladin on Griffin -> Vampire on Pegasus
Bearer of the Holy Icon -> Revenant King
War-Wizard -> Necromancer
Ur-Elhoi -> Modded as per Elohi
Jullius and Samacris - Modded as per Elohi
Berosos -> Lich King and Lich King mounted on some kind of Palanquin for mounted version
Gnaeus Sallustis - Vampire on whatever you want, as long as it fits on a 50mm base

I have to say, I do like the flexibility this game has, and as with yourself, it shouldn't be hard to make up any kind of themed army you want, and find suitable rules to go with it.

Highly recommend these two BoW videos to anyone wanting to get a feel for how Kings of War plays:






It helps that it's quite interesting to watch just as a battle report as well as a demo/ introduction to KoW itself... the end result is quite unexpected.

After you've got a few games under your belt you can easily play a huge game in 1-2 hours. It's a completely stress-free quick game that doesn't require you to remember a ton of stuff or check the rules all that much.

Army lists are all generally balanced and you tend to play against the person rather than their army list, there are no uber-combos or "net lists".

Ooh thanks for link I'm gonna watch those later I don't like fantasy wargames as much but I have a whole host of undead laying about just in case ;D

The Demo game is a great introduction to the game.

That's a great report, and I don't like video reports.

 Fenriswulf wrote:
What did you use to make up that list? Is it an army builder?

I am looking for one which will allow me to name a unit, have the original units name, the unit cost and then the stats plus whatever other magic I add in. I think Armybuilder might let me do this.

I am thinking for my Ysian army I will use the Orc rules with Kingdoms of Men allies. I think it'd break down like this;

Google Docs / Google Drive

sounds excellent! I'm way excited to see your finished ysian horde!

I played once against this Warriors of Chaos army list and I find it good. The list was updated in 2013 so it suppose to be playtested a lot by the creator.

http://es.scribd.com/doc/122663888/Kings-of-War-Warriors-of-Chaos

Not a bad battle report at all, especially since I don't usually like them. I notice many of their figures in it are multibased.