Do Centurions get an invulnerable save?

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**augustus5**

I played a game last night and my opponent insisted that his centurions get a 5++ save. In the interest of keeping the game going I took his word for it, but I don't remember seeing anything related to them getting a 5++ when I read through the codex. As a matter of fact, I thought that their lack of an invulnerable save was a big weakness for them because of their point cost. I don't have a SM codex so I haven't been able to look it up myself. Can anybody clear this up for me please?

**reds8n**

They don't have one listed in their profile or rules.

Being charitable one supposes he might have erroneously thought they had TDA ... ?

On the plus side you know no one will ever get this past you again.

**PrinceRaven**

It takes all of 30 seconds to look up the unit entry in the codex to find out. I would recommend next time you think the opponent might be wrong to politely ask them if you can verify that with a look at their codex.

**Bookwrack**

augustus5 wrote:
I don't have a SM codex so I haven't been able to look it up myself.

Why didn't you ask for a look at his?

**Kommissar Kel**

Bookwrack wrote:
augustus5 wrote:
I don't have a SM codex so I haven't been able to look it up myself.

Why didn't you ask for a look at his?

Because his opponent tried it.

Which, of course the answer to this is to have him show you the rule in his codex.

**augustus5**

Bookwrack wrote:
augustus5 wrote:
I don't have a SM codex so I haven't been able to look it up myself.

Why didn't you ask for a look at his?

Thanks for clearing this up for me guys. I didn't bother asking to see his codex because I just didn't want to create an awkward situation. It would not have really changed the course of the game in any event.

**cammy**

you can get around the awkward ness though, just be polite and dont try and call them out, but go along the lines of, i didnt realise that x unit had x - woah mind if have a look at that must seriously misjuged them, and then read through it and just meantion that the unit is pretty good however i cannot see the 5++ bit?

**Kommissar Kel**

Use the following script: "Really, that's awesome. Can I see that rule, I might have to start a ___ army(alternately I( might have to start using that unit)?"

Say it all sing-songy with excited interest.

**Jimsolo**

To be fair, I kept looking through the codex at different areas (wargear, rules, armor entries) trying to find the Centurions' invulnerable save, because I was SURE they had to have one SOMEWHERE.

Alas, they do not.

**Bloodhorror**

Jimsolo wrote:
To be fair, I kept looking through the codex at different areas (wargear, rules, armor entries) trying to find the Centurions' invulnerable save, because I was SURE they had to have one SOMEWHERE.

Alas, they do not.

Good.

**Kommissar Kel**

Jimsolo wrote:
To be fair, I kept looking through the codex at different areas (wargear, rules, armor entries) trying to find the Centurions' invulnerable save, because I was SURE they had to have one SOMEWHERE.

Alas, they do not.

Honestly when first reading the codex I had assumed they where wearing termi armor under the centurion exo-suit and thus would have the 5++; then after searching through the codex found that wasn't true after a friend of mine asked if that were the case.

**augustus5**

It's kind of strange that they do not have an invulnerable save, being that they are kind of the SM equivalent of obliterators, who get their 5++ from being daemons. Although they do have a lot more firepower than obliterators.

**Grey Templar**

Its because they are T5.

**BarBoBot**

Yeah but if your running obliterators, they have MoN and are also t5.

Also, I disagree that centurions have a lot more firepower than obliterators. Centurions can fire 2 weapons, but they have a single purpose, be it anti tank or anti infantry, while obliterators are a jack of all trades.

When TL las/missile devs are not shooting at vehicles, they are sub par.

When obliterators are not using their lascannon/multi melta/TL melta to shoot at tanks, they have plasma cannon/assault cannon/TL flamer/ heavy flamer for anti infantry.

Shooting 2 weapons is nice, but not so useful when you don't have the right weapons for the job.

**augustus5**

BarBoBot wrote:
Yeah but if your running obliterators, they have MoN and are also t5.

I'd almost rather give them MoT for a 4++.

But although they are not as flexible as obliterators, they can more reliably take down whatever their are tasked to shoot. Oblits can only fire a single lascannon, and then only every other turn vs. a centurion kitted for anti-tank which can fire a TL lascannon and a missile launcher every turn. Once you get to within 24 inches the oblits have quite a few more choices.

**Grey Templar**

Its reliability against versatility.

With Centurions, you have that lascannon and missile launcher each turn every turn. Potentially with Split Fire and Tank Hunter to boot.

Oblits have versatility and higher durability, but at a cost. You can't fire the same weapon each turn, you'll be paying points for T5 and a better invuln(and can't get both)

Centurions can stand behind an ADL and get a 4+ cover so they kinda have an invuln. Anything that ignores the cover is very unlikely to ignore their 2+ armor so its really a wash.

**Lemartes12**

wow i didn't realize they didn't get one.

**SoloFalcon1138**

It's not listed in the book, so no.

**FlingitNow**

Centurions can fire 2 weapons, but they have a single purpose, be it anti tank or anti infantry

What about Grav Centurions excellent against infantry even better against vehicles.

Cents have more damage output, oblits have more flexibility, survivability and are harder to counter (get 5 MEQs into combat with the Cents and they are tarpitted, those 5 marines are barely a speed bump to Oblits in combat.)

**BarBoBot**

Don't grav weapons only affect vehicles when rolling a 6 on pen, and even then only a hull point and immobilized result?

If I'm correct, how does that make them better against vehicles than infantry?

Also, lascannons are not the only, nor the primary anti tank gun obliterators have.

Unlike centurions, onliterators can deepstrike making the multi melta and twin linked melta gun better.

When the centurions don't have a tank to shoot at, they are wasted points.

**grendel083**

And those Grav Centurions are complete rubbish against Orks

**FlingitNow**

Don't grav weapons only affect vehicles when rolling a 6 on pen, and even then only a hull point and immobilized result?

If I'm correct, how does that make them better against vehicles than infantry?

Because you get a boatload of shots and rerolls on the pen roll. Meaning that on average you'll do about 7HPs to any vehicle the Cents shoot at. It is basically a guaranteed kill on any vehicle you point them at, even if it has a good cover save. That is why they are if anything better against vehicles than infantry. Clearly you have not used them against vehicles (or even understand their rules well enough to judge) so why comment?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yes Grav Centurions aren't great against Hordes but not as bad as some people think. Yes they need 6s but they get rerolls which is basically as good as S3 shots against Orks and they each have a Hurricane bolter for another 6 S4 twin linked shots. So over all that's 11 shots per model and on average 3.7 wounds per centurion before cover saves (if you get any). Not great but not as terrible as people would assume.

**BarBoBot**

Your talking a unit of 3 centurions right? Can you explain how they put out 7 hull points in damage on average?

I understand that further immobilized results become an extra hull point loss, but I'm not seeing 7 hull points even with rerolls when only working on a 6.

**FlingitNow**

Sorry I run a unit 4 Cents and others I've seen running 3s have a divination psyker in the unit (both of which result in the same average of just over 7.14 HPs)

With 3 Cents without prescience it works out on average just over 5.1 HPs. Though remember you can get rerolling 1s to hit without needing a psyker which again pushes you to on average 6.2 HPs. In any case that is a dead vehicle.

**BarBoBot**

Ok, so now I'm curious. Since we have been comparing obliterators to centurions firepower, what's the points difference.

3 nurgle obliterators are just over 225 points. About how many points would 3 centurions with grav and the rerolls to wound/pen be?

**rigeld2**

A Powerfist more expensive.

**BarBoBot**

Ok, so not too much more expensive.

24" range and slow and purposeful makes it hard to really bring those weapons in range of a vehicle while still remaining in cover for the save though.

It would be easy for an opponent to outmaneuver yo especially if your hugging cover.

**FlingitNow**

Yeah the Cents come in ata few points more. Cents are good but not automatically better than Oblits as every Chaos player whined when they came out. They can be in squads of up to 6 which is also an advantage. But 24" range is a downer and as stated they are easier to counter and have no invun. But they have access to Characters with a 3++ and EW for as little as 115 points to sit at the front of the unit and take bullets for them.

**grendel083**

FlingitNow wrote:
Yeah the Cents come in at [CENSORED] points more.

Try not to get the website shut down Fling, there's a reason people weren't using exact points cost

**FlingitNow**

Yes Barbobot that is the issue with Grav Cents hence why in my opinion they are only viable if you have a 3++ character at the front taking bullets for them or you get them an invun by other means (allied PFG, divination power of 4++).