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I see a lot of tournament Tau lists and I rarely see either the Devilfish or the Flyer...is there a reason? Is it because they are mediocre compared to other stuff they can take from the book?

It is not because they are mediocre (like stealth suits), its because they are absolute garbage compared to not only the rest of the book but to basically every other army out there.

The only Tau flyer that is good is the Barracuda, but because it doesn't start on the table, only has an AP 3 blast and is less durable than a Riptide for similar cost, is often not taken.

Devilfish is way too expensive for a transport that just prevents a unit with long range, good strength, high volume of fire from shooting. There are no worthwhile upgrades for it and it's weaponry is negligable compared to it's cost.
Some people think it's one of the better transports in the game. I doubt those people play Tau often.

The Flyer are rather lackluster. The fighter is a better bomber and the bomber is a better fighter. Their biggest problem is that when your main battle tank and heavy Elite unit are able to toss out large AP3/2 blasts repesectively, then you're not going to need an AP4/5 blast to add in as well. Add to it that they both get hot, but one ruins the bomber for the rest of the game.
The Fast attack also has the Piranha and Gun drones squads, which are far more useful when tied in with the rest of the army. Flyers just fill a role nobody wants or needs filled.

I do not know enough about flyers to make a post about them. At first glance, they look decent for what they offer and where they are placed in the FoC.

Devilfish, I don't use too often myself. I did however read a decent write up on 3++ that talks about the Dfish. It's a decent read.

http://www.3plusplus.net/2013/09/tau-codex-review-devilfish/#more-8144

That article is so bad it isn't funny, I've never been on 3++ before and with articles like that, I won't be going back anytime soon.

These units all share the same two problems in that they both overpriced and add nothing to the army.

Toward the end of 4e, most transports benefited from an abrupt drop in price, and often got free wargear to boot. The chimera was particularly successful, in addition to some free wargear, it went from 1 to 5 fire ports while also going down in price. Not only was the Devilfish denied the same price break, but the one piece of wargear that made it semi-decent actually got a price increase (this increase was fair, but it certainly didn't improve the devilfish). It also serves no real point. Firewarriors don't need to be transported close to the enemy, as they have 30" guns they can fire on the move. Kroot get infiltrate for free, so it makes no sense to pay more than what you likely paid for the kroot squad to have a devilfish taxi them around. There are no fire ports so troops are useless while embarked. It isn't fast so it does not make a particularly good late game objective grabber. The SMS is nice but for what you are paying you could purchase a broadside instead and get a HYMP along with the SMS and still have enough points left over to purchase two missile drones.

The Tau flyers are among the most expensive models in the Tau army, with a Sunshark coming in around just 10 points fewer then a budget Riptide after you throw in the nearly mandatory upgrades. Should you throw on some d-pods for extra survivability, the things are nearly as expensive as Stormravens, which given its capabilities is an absolutely ridiculous price. Both flyers serve the same two functions (which begs the questions of why there are even two flyers), which is to fire blast and large blast templates, and to put out strength 7 shots. In an army with access to AP3 and AP2 large blast on excellent platforms, it makes little since to field overpriced flyers just to fire large blast with inferior AP values. The str 7 shots suffer from two problems. First you are paying twice the number of points you would be paying for them on a ground based platform and the accuracy tends to be inferior on the aircraft. Furthermore, the primary function of str 7 shooting in a Tau army is to disable transports, which you want to do as soon as possible, so your sources of str 7 shooting are the last thing you want to leave in reserve, which you are forced to do with flyers. Had the flyers had a different function, say heavy armor hunting, which is a badly needed function due to the broadside nerf, you would actually see them, but for some reason they just provide more str 7 shooting.

To add further insult to injury, all of the really good markelight sources are in the fast attack slots, so not only do that flyers not add anything particularly useful to the Tau army, fielding them actually interferes with the ability to field markerlights (which makes no bloody sense but I didn't write the Tau codex), making the flyers even worse.

If you do want to field flyers, you only real good Tau one is the Barracuda, which is cheaper, fields superior armament and superior armor (game balance anyone?). Although perhaps the best flyers are allied necron flyers, as you can field just as many necron fliers per detachment as Tau fliers, these fliers are far and away superior to codex fliers, and doing so does not inhibit your ability to field markerlights (how do you like that, your army actually works better with a different armies fliers).

 Krellnus wrote:
That article is so bad it isn't funny, I've never been on 3++ before and with articles like that, I won't be going back anytime soon.

I think it's a great article that does a good job of focusing on the upsides or an under used transport. I myself don't run any. But if you play an infantry heavy list, I can see the usefulness of the Devilfish.

 Coyote81 wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:
That article is so bad it isn't funny, I've never been on 3++ before and with articles like that, I won't be going back anytime soon.

I think it's a great article that does a good job of focusing on the upsides or an under used transport. I myself don't run any. But if you play an infantry heavy list, I can see the usefulness of the Devilfish.

A unit can only be under used if it has a useful role in an army, that it is good at, but it competes with another unit that does another job that it is proportionally even better at than it is. The biggest example I can think of is the Hellhound.
With its Torrent Flamer weapon it has an exceptional ability to kill medium infantry dug into cover and put ridiculous amounts of wounds of heavier infantry. However, it is a fast attack unit which means it competes for slots with the Vendetta, a unit that is so OTT good at anti - tank, that even though it must start in reserve and will probably spend another turn off the table on top of that, it is a clear always take unit.

The Devifish is in no way analogous to the Hellhound at all.
It has absolutley no role within a Tau army, we don't play the objective gave at all, because we can just wipe out swathes of the enemy every turn, leaving them nothing to even capture with, so we don't need mobility to capture objectives, we only take minimum infantry units (that can fit in it) anyway, so we don't have anything worth protecting from enemy fire. It is very inefficient at dealing damage to any target, so we don't need it for the damage. So what can it do again? Because I can't see it doing anything that helps us, let alone anything efficiently.

The 3++ article on the devilfish was a rather interesting read i'll agree there. However as ever in these discussions it is entirley up to you as a player whether you take a unit or not.

In this case the Devilfish falls rather obviously short for many players, that is a fair comment. However i find them 'ok' as back up for riptides/hammerheads when they carry small fire warrior squads to deploy in better positions, or actually nick an objective as an insurance policy if the 'OMG' firepower hasn't quite finished the job. But that is my humble opinion...

The codex flyers are rather crap, they do nothing for the army when you can take far more effective AA weapons etc, and i agree that they are useless, in effect nice modle shame about the rules. Excluding the riptide of course

The post wasn't suggesting that it was the best thing since sliced bread. They pointed out weaknesses and strengths of the unit. In fact, i read the article and it got me thinking on a few strategies to use with the Dfish. One idea was to use the Dfish to give enemy units cover so your other units could focus fire them. This would also give be type of blocker for advancing enemy units. A Dfish with DP flatout gives it 3+ cover. You make the commander choose between shooting that to get it out of the way or shooting at other targets.

Also, it's the only transport for Tau in the game. Kroot are nice to outflank, but they are weak. If you need some kind of mobile scoring unit this is it. It's by no means good compared to other Codexs, but it does a decent job.

The Devilfish and flyers are only bad in comparison. Without riptides in the army they would be fielded more often, but most tau armies I've seen depend on spamming riptides or a huge blob of suits.

Had the Tau book not been so free with support systems, and not included riptides you would see more of the flyers and the fish.

As it is, the riptides need to be about 200 points base, have access to only one system, and not be joinable. Then they would be less of a mandatory choice.

The shortcomings of Devilfish and flyers have nothing to do with Riptides. Devilfish were already lackluster and overpriced under 5e and 6e rules, long before Riptides were introduced, and having the Tau vehicle armory gutted in the latest codex certainly did not help matters. As for the flyers, they are simply rubbish, and would be losing out to hammerheads and crisis suits if they weren't losing out to riptides. Had flyers comparable to the Vendetta or even the Stormraven been available in the Tau army, you would see them fielded. Heck, flyers often are fielded in with Tau armies, they just happened to be allied flyers, which are far, far better than the codex flyers.

Here's a good break down on why the flyers are bad.
What do the Tau have a lot of access to?
-A lot of good strength and low AP weaponry with the ability to ignore cover, even two sources of high S low AP large blasts.
What did the Tau need?
-A decent transport option or perhaps a good anti-tank/anti-flyer option that would tackle things like stormravens and vendettas.
What did the Tau get?
-A non transport flyer that is rather crappy at taking down the more durable flyers the ground options aren't good at dealing with. Their weaponry is focused on ground targets like the rest of the army, but comes in S/AP that is rather lack luster compared to every other option.

I think I prefer the fighter over the bomber, but even then I'd never take it because I'd have to give something up to do it. Even a Railhead with submunitions has a better weapon than the fighter and it is a bit cheaper. They both have seeker missiles, which would be decent at anti-air but only one has a markerlight, and the sky ray works better anyways.

Phanixis wrote:
The shortcomings of Devilfish and flyers have nothing to do with Riptides. Devilfish were already lackluster and overpriced under 5e and 6e rules, long before Riptides were introduced, and having the Tau vehicle armory gutted in the latest codex certainly did not help matters. As for the flyers, they are simply rubbish, and would be losing out to hammerheads and crisis suits if they weren't losing out to riptides. Had flyers comparable to the Vendetta or even the Stormraven been available in the Tau army, you would see them fielded. Heck, flyers often are fielded in with Tau armies, they just happened to be allied flyers, which are far, far better than the codex flyers.

IG flyers are currently undercoated due to being an old codex. The Razorfish is broadly similar in cost and performance to the Stormtalon and DA flyers. The transport capacity of the Stormraven is lost on the Tau, they already have fairly mobile units. Its weaponry isn't much better stock, again broadly equivalent to a razroshark, but the upgrades make it more effective at anti-vehicle. Tau flyers have turreted weapons, so they have fewer issues keeping units in line of sight. The 30' range on most of their weapons, on a flyer, means that you will pretty much always have line of sight on a target and you don't need to be as risky with maneuvering like the eldar or SM ones.
Both the Tau flyers give you a large blast high strength attack in the fast attack slot. None of the other fast attack choices give you that option. Aside from pathfinders hiding in cover, none of the FA choices are as resilient as a flyer as well.

So from a codex perspective I think they would be a viable addition. One or two to supplement your HS slots firepower by hitting an enemy in the backfield. However, as I said, why waste points on them when a Riptide can drop an S9, AP2 ignores cover large blast anywhere in line of sight, and has skyfire and interceptor? Properly set up and used, a riptide currently takes the entirety of most armies long range fire to bring down in a turn or two, and retains its effectiveness throughout. Riptdies are good against any opponent, and are resilient against any opponent. Close combat is their only weakness, and even that is mitigated somewhat by overwatch tau and monstrous creature rules.

Without the riptide crutch, Tau players would find the flyers much more appealing.

Durandal wrote:

Both the Tau flyers give you a large blast high strength attack in the fast attack slot. None of the other fast attack choices give you that option. Aside from pathfinders hiding in cover, none of the FA choices are as resilient as a flyer as well.

Only the fighter gives you high strength large blast. The bomber's large blast is just S5.

IG flyers are currently undercoated due to being an old codex. The Razorfish is broadly similar in cost and performance to the Stormtalon and DA flyers. The transport capacity of the Stormraven is lost on the Tau, they already have fairly mobile units. Its weaponry isn't much better stock, again broadly equivalent to a razroshark, but the upgrades make it more effective at anti-vehicle. Tau flyers have turreted weapons, so they have fewer issues keeping units in line of sight. The 30' range on most of their weapons, on a flyer, means that you will pretty much always have line of sight on a target and you don't need to be as risky with maneuvering like the eldar or SM ones.

Even with a considerably price hike I would much rather take IG flyers. While I can't speak for everyone else, if you put 180 point Vendettas in the Tau codex, I would take them in a heartbeat. Also, while many Tau units are fast, our scoring troops are not, and being able to airdrop them would have fantastic tactical application. In regard to the Stormtalon and DA flyers, you won't find any more love for the DA flyers than the Tau ones, they are considered equally wretched if not worse, having been written by the same author. Stormtalons certainly fair better, but have a certain versatility to them. With a assault cannon/las cannon loadout for instance, they become a passable anti-heavy armor platform that would actually give most Tau units a run for their money when hunting heavy armor. Stormtalons also benefit from twin-linked BS4 weapons so they can land virtually every shot without outside help, and also enjoy a turreted weapon.

The turreted weapons on the Tau flyers are nice, but it just isn't enough. It doesn't make of for all of the other shortcomings, such a poor armor, BS 3, prohibitive points cost and lack of twin-linked weapons of any kind of the razorshark, not to mention the ability to purchase ground units with similar capabilities (including skyfire) for a fraction of the cost.

Both the Tau flyers give you a large blast high strength attack in the fast attack slot. None of the other fast attack choices give you that option. Aside from pathfinders hiding in cover, none of the FA choices are as resilient as a flyer as well.

The thing is, I don't want to be taking sources of large blast in my fast attack slots. Because of the way the Tau codex is set up, FA provides the most economical and easily integrated sources of markerlights for the army. Because of the power of markelights in the current codex, it is best to actively avoid using FA slots for anything other than markerlight support if at all possible. This is admittedly more a problem with the codex layout than the flyers themself, but it is yet another reason to avoid taking them, and actually makes allying flyers more attractive (hence get some Necrons). Also, for what I pay for the flyers, I could easily take 4 piranha which also bring 8 gun drones and I think it would be considerably more difficult to clean those up than a single AV 11/10/10 flyer.

So from a codex perspective I think they would be a viable addition. One or two to supplement your HS slots firepower by hitting an enemy in the backfield. However, as I said, why waste points on them when a Riptide can drop an S9, AP2 ignores cover large blast anywhere in line of sight, and has skyfire and interceptor? Properly set up and used, a riptide currently takes the entirety of most armies long range fire to bring down in a turn or two, and retains its effectiveness throughout. Riptdies are good against any opponent, and are resilient against any opponent. Close combat is their only weakness, and even that is mitigated somewhat by overwatch tau and monstrous creature rules.

Without the riptide crutch, Tau players would find the flyers much more appealing.

The Riptides are nice, but even without them the flyers would struggle to find a place within the army. Tau ionheads can still shot S8, AP3 templates across the table, also with ignores cover provided markerlight support is available (and needing one fewer markerlight in general thanks to higher BS). Also, what is so special about the templates in a version of the codex where a single Crisis squad can be packing 6 fusion blasters, which if receiving markerlight support, can shoot at BS5 ignores cover? Neither unit is as good as a Riptide, but they sure as heck would continue to crowd out the flyers, especially because taking the flyers would interfere with our ability to field the cheap markerlights that are giving out the oh so wonderful ignores cover and ensuring those templates and fusion blasters actually hit the target.

The fliers are utter trash. Ridiculous cost for an AV11/10/10 body with "meh" weapons. What is it with GW and these S5 AP5 bombs anyway? And theyre always on a body thats way too expensive to deliver a single S5 AP5 pi plate and hope to survive afterwords. Whats even funnier is this one doesnt ignore cover, its just Large Blast Heavy 1..not Barrage or anything.

The other is even more dumb. 145pts bare for a less durable, less powerful Ionhead that has a 30" range instead of 60"? wth? It costs even more than the usual Ionhead does, which includes Dpods and BSFilter (really dont need anything else, Sensor Spines if you got points since ignoring the terrain is always nice)

Devilfish are just pointless since the firewarriors cant shoot from them and theyre expensive. Its a durable body but whats the point of it? If they could at least shoot out of it i could see taking them for pathfinders to give them some mobility and bulk.