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So this is an attempt at a sort of draigowing with well...wings.

I am having trouble cutting fat and optimizing the list. The primary components I want in the list are the paladins deathstar and the three stormravens.

I had considered cutting draigo but I think he is key to making a paladin deathstar work as he can tank S8 AP2 on his eternal warrior, 3++ bad self.

Please help me optimize the list to a fine running machine. Thanks.

Edited List - Again

1850 points

HQ
Inquisitor Coteaz (100pts)

Lord Commander Draigo (275pts)

Troops
Draigo's Paladins (655pts)
10x Paladins,
4x Nemesis Daemonhammer, 4x Nemesis Force Halberd, 1x Nemesis Force Sword
4x Psycannon, 6x Storm Bolter
Brotherhood Banner

Solodin (55pts)

Fast Attack
Stormraven Gunship (255pts)
TL-AC, Psybolt, TL-MM, Hurricane Bolters

Stormraven Gunship (255pts)
TL-AC, Psybolt, TL-MM, Hurricane Bolters

Stormraven Gunship (255pts)
TL-AC, Psybolt, TL-MM, Hurricane Bolters

I would take out the 3 squads of flamer henchmen (126pts)
Instead take 2 solodins and 1 squad of 3 naked henchmen (122pts)
I also would not take falchions but swords instead for a 3++ in cc if the staff dies

How many points do you want to play?

Not a bad suggestion. I was also considering solodins. What do you do about cover campers on objectives? I guess charge with a soladin but is that better than 3xflamer? I will admit the solodin has much greater disruption value.

The idea for the swords does seem worthwhile. Is there no place for falchions?

I would like to keep the list below 1999. I would scale the list by dropping henchmen and then stormravens.

Why lascannons on the Storm Raven? Why deliberately make the vehicle worse when you could have just kept the superior Assault Cannon?

Personally I feel GK Ravens need Hurricane Bolters and Psy boltto function properly as their missiles are poor.

Not convinced psy bolt is worth it for 5 Storm bolters. I'd drop the Falchions for Halberds, swords are meh you only get a 4++ going first is generally more useful. Falchions are just a waste of points unless you're doing something with Quicksilver, Might and HH for massed damage output. But that's generally not necessary in 6th.

Maybe drop an Acolyte squad or drop the flamers from them. Just use the SRs as gunships that keep scoring units safe till turn 5.

lascanon for the SR is for AA/AT
However on the 3 SR it is probably overkill.

The missiles are not poor but dedicated. See what they can do to screamerstar/seerstar/Daemons/GK ....

For objective campers, the holocaust can be nice instead of the flamer while staying alive a lot better and charging afterwards.

Sorry what? The lascannons are for AT and AA???? Sorry that makes as much sense as taking the lascannon for horde control. The Assault cannon is better against vehicles so why would you stop it for a weapon that is worse against vehicles for reasons of dealing with AT and AA that literally beggars belief. Did that even make sense when you typed it?

The missiles are poor AA and AT whilst they are great in the right situation they are very situational. A lot of the most competitive builds have little to no Psykers.

As far as paladin weapons I usually find myself in a different camp than most people. I tend to only take a few hammers myself. My reasoning is that paladins are a durable shooting unit that can do well in assault. If you're going toe to toe with hammer terminators than something has gone wrong. Swords really only shine against axes, fists, and hammers. These are usually wielded by units you shouldn't cross blades with like TEQ or by units you can crush long before I1. For this reason, as well as others I'd take mostly halberds. A few swords aren't bad to run behind draigo for taking wounds but I would take two at most.

As far as falcions, it's a shame that they aren't optimal because they look great. I'd take them over swords if you have spare points but halberds are still better IMO. The banner gives you more attacks for far fewer points and a banner+falcions build is just overkill.

Yeah I agree with most of that. I don't get the points cost on Falchions in every other codex EVER a thunder hammer has been a load more points than a normal power weapon and pistol combo. So why the reverse is true here (paying more for +1 attack vs 2xS and concussive, let alone the current changes to AP) I just can't fathom. If the Falchions had been +2 attacks as was implied with the initial codex then I could understand it. They would have been a good option but still not an auto take as is Halberds and Hammers are the only weapons any GK should carry (with the odd stave of course, and excluding strikes who should never pay the ludicrous cost to upgrade their weapons).

 FlingitNow wrote:
Sorry what? The lascannons are for AT and AA???? Sorry that makes as much sense as taking the lascannon for horde control. The Assault cannon is better against vehicles so why would you stop it for a weapon that is worse against vehicles for reasons of dealing with AT and AA that literally beggars belief. Did that even make sense when you typed it?

What if said vehicle is a land raider?

 dragqueeninspace wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Sorry what? The lascannons are for AT and AA???? Sorry that makes as much sense as taking the lascannon for horde control. The Assault cannon is better against vehicles so why would you stop it for a weapon that is worse against vehicles for reasons of dealing with AT and AA that literally beggars belief. Did that even make sense when you typed it?

What if said vehicle is a land raider?

So? The Assault cannon is still better against Landraiders than the lascannons so I don't get your point? Assault cannons are better than lascannons against vehicles I don't know how else to say it? I shocked people aren't aware of this anyway the stats are all there.

If you are looking at taking out vehicles through HP yes the AC is far better.
If you are looking at a one shot of a vehicle (and thus use PotM) then the LC is far better.

In total the AC will indeed take in average more HP then the LC IF you have psy amo and thus it is more expensive.

If you want to be able to potentially (with some luck) destroy 2 helldrakes/other vehicles or fliers with 1 given Storm, the LC will be better.

However given your tone i guess you will say that you are right and other people are wrong and there is nothing to discuss

The assault cannon does more HPs to AV14 without Psybolt. With Psybolt it does almost as much damage as 3 lascannons. With Psybolt it is also more likely to 1 shot than the lascannon. Without the lascannon is marginally ahead in all cases your chances of 1 shotting are very low so not worth trying to split fire for it.

Check the maths the lascannon has 1 advantage of the assault cannon and that is range. On a SR that advantage is largely moot thus the Assault Cannon is the better choice always.

On the whole matter with AP (AC or LC) I agree with sleekid. It is basically what you want to achieve with it.
My comments on the list itself would be following:
- I deem the warding staff as too expensive for what it does, so I'd drop it. (a matter of opinion, really)
- I am not sure about the brotherhood banner, since it is quite expensive, too. (Well, with about 10 guys in the squad, it starts to make sense)
- Falchions give one additional attack (and I do not really like how they look) and are something I would take only, if I have a few points left. But to equip a whole squat can get expensive. Halberds and hammers are the best choice in melee weapons, in my humble opinion
- Coteaz is a great character with some nice abilities, but taking him just with only a few tiny squads of henchmen does not really pay (he works best, I think, in a henchmen-heavy list). In the list you have, I would drop him and the henchmen for some additional solodins (or stuff you want to equip your guys with).
- 3 Stormravens are a bit too much, and I would probably drop one of them. With the other two, think if you want pure tankhunters or if you'd like them to be a bit more versatile (more shots or something...). For the points of the dropped stormraven, you can probably get a psyflebot or a dreadknight.

I am just going to go through points that caught my attention.

Falchions are bad. I am convinced and looking again I totally agree. I see both sides on the swords vs halberds. It is not a huge deal though as they are the same points.

I think I may change to an AC. The LC has it's place and I would say is better in a SM stormraven but the psybolt ammo and versatility of the AC makes sense in the GK dex.

The paladin Psy ammo is there for the psycannons.

The banner seems worthwhile for what is essentially a deathstar. I would be in bad shape if the deathstar got bogged down in gaunts.

Coteaz allows me to prescience the paladinstar and to intercept anything DS within 12" of him. This is important as prescience multiplies the damage and the DS plasma/melta is a decent way to weaken this type of unit as if you can DS them near the apoth and away from draigo you cab greatly weaken the unit.

I agree that 3 stormravens is probably a bit much for this point level but it is the gimmick I wanted to try. Otherwise I should be taking necron allies...

I will change the list in the initial post. Please let me know what you think of changes. Thanks.

Against AV14:
Non psy assault cannon - 0.395 hull points. 3.3% at one shotting.
Psy assault cannon - 0.593 hull points. 6.6% at one shotting.
Lascannon - 0.296 hull points. 4.9% at one shotting.

Against AV13:
Assault cannon - 0.593. 6.6%
Psy Assault cannon - 0.593. 9.9%
Lascannon - 0.444. 9.9%

Against AV12:
AC - 0.593. 9.9%
PAC - 1.185. 9.9%
L - 0.593. 14.8%

Against AV11
AC - 1.185. 9.9%
PAC - 1.778. 19.2%
L - 0.741. 19.8%

Against AV10
AC - 1.778. 19.2%
PAC - 2.370. 27.5%
L - 0.889. 24.7%.

Apart from 1 shotting AV12 and the most minute of differences with one shotting av11, the psybolt assault cannon wins every single time! That's mathmatical fact.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Its always up on hull points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If playing the long game the stats would suggest the normal assault cannon is better than the las. If playing the high risk high stakes game the las is better.
All stats based on twin-linked with no cover.
Obviously only vehicles considered.

Even the non-psybolt is up on HPs all the time...

Edited List
1896 points

HQ
Inquisitor Coteaz (100pts)
Honestly since you are barely taking any henchmen I would consider running a regular Ordo Malleus Inquisitor with TDA, Psyker 1 (for prescience) and a psycannon. It comes out to 110 points and sports prescience and a relentless psycannon! Up to you though.
Lord Commander Draigo (275pts)

Troops
Draigo's Paladins (770pts)
10x Paladins,
4x Nemesis Daemonhammer, 2x Nemesis Force Halberd, 2x Nemesis Force Sword, Nemesis Warding Stave
4x Psycannon, 5x Storm Bolter
Brotherhood Banner, Narthecium, Psybolt Ammunition
Ok here I have a few recommendations.
1.) Drop the Apothecary. Trust me. I've ran him dozens of times and he never has made his points back when it counts. He only helps against small arms fire (mostly) and Paladins are already ridiculously resilient.
2.)The warding stave is really just too expsnsive for what you get. Now, if paladins were still able to challenge/ accept challenges than this would be a no brainer. But seeing as how they can't it would be pretty hard to make sure he stays in a position to actually make effective use of the 2++
3.)Drop the Psybolt ammo. It doesn't have an effect on psycannons.
4.)KEEP the banner. an extra attack for everyone as well as auto force activation can be the difference between victory and defeat against, say, a group of Nob Bikers that got the charge off.
4.) Personally, I would run more halberds. Halberds plus hammerhand(s) is usually better than even a S10 Ap2 Weapon that strikes at Initiative 1. Your call here as well.

3x Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband (12pts) x3 Naked Acolytes
Easy First blood/VP ditch em
Solodin (50pts)

Solodin (50pts)

Fast Attack
Stormraven Gunship (205pts)
TL AC, Psybolt, TL Multi Melta

Stormraven Gunship (205pts)
TL AC, Psybolt, TL Multi Melta

Stormraven Gunship (205pts)
TL AC, Psybolt, TL Multi Melta

 korghan wrote:

Honestly since you are barely taking any henchmen I would consider running a regular Ordo Malleus Inquisitor with TDA, Psyker 1 (for prescience) and a psycannon. It comes out to 110 points and sports prescience and a relentless psycannon! Up to you though.

I can understand your reasoning. I even agree with some of it. I just think the value of I've been expecting you is too much to pass up. I may be a coteaz addict...

 korghan wrote:

1.) Drop the Apothecary. Trust me. I've ran him dozens of times and he never has made his points back when it counts. He only helps against small arms fire (mostly) and Paladins are already ridiculously resilient.
2.)The warding stave is really just too expsnsive for what you get. Now, if paladins were still able to challenge/ accept challenges than this would be a no brainer. But seeing as how they can't it would be pretty hard to make sure he stays in a position to actually make effective use of the 2++
3.)Drop the Psybolt ammo. It doesn't have an effect on psycannons.
4.)KEEP the banner. an extra attack for everyone as well as auto force activation can be the difference between victory and defeat against, say, a group of Nob Bikers that got the charge off.
4.) Personally, I would run more halberds. Halberds plus hammerhand(s) is usually better than even a S10 Ap2 Weapon that strikes at Initiative 1. Your call here as well.

1) If you mean plasma is small arms fire then yes. I am not convinced that giving the unit FnP is not worthwhile with the amount of plasma and grav out there now.
2) I am not understanding what is hard with getting him to tank wounds. You just need to get him into BtB with an enemy or an IC (of which I have 2) then he can tank wounds from whatever big scary would kill people.
3) You are right! For some reason I thought psybolt ammo worked on the psycannon. That is definitely not worthwhile.
4) I am seeing it both ways. I think this may be a meta dependent mixture that will have to be fine tuned.

 korghan wrote:
3x Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband (12pts) x3 Naked Acolytes
Easy First blood/VP ditch em

Well easy VP might be apt. First blood is definitely not right though as they would be in the stormravens. Dropping the psyammo and henchmen will buy me another solodin though so I agree.

 korghan wrote:

Wont touch these as you've said you want to stick with them. And I agree that a psybolt AC is a much better weapon than the LC.

Come now it wouldn't be "Draigo Airforce" if I didn't have 3 stormravens in it. I can post a 2 dreadknight version of this list later tonight if that would make you happier.

If I pitted my nids against this I'd bring 6-9 hiveguard, 2 20xman gaunt squads, AG/TS tervis and cheap tl BLW platforms.

Due to overwhelming dislike for the FnP and warding staff I have booted those out.

I also had some points wrong (don't post at work!).

zaak wrote:
If I pitted my nids against this I'd bring 6-9 hiveguard, 2 20xman gaunt squads, AG/TS tervis and cheap tl BLW platforms.

And if you tailored your list to specifically beat mine I wouldn't play you.

I updated the list above with some changes. Partially due to having some points wrong.

@ ansacs- I didn't even realize that you pm'd me about the DK's haha! I can see the reasoning behind why you want to take the StormChickens. They are pretty awesome which is why I said I wouldn't touch them. As far as the banner goes I really think it is a good idea in a tac list. I never modeled mine and I regretted it. If you face a list that doesn't have dedicated assault units than push that sucker behind draigo to take wounds. But if you do face one that banner can save the friggin day when combined with halberds. I've played a nob bike list many times where I wouldve done much better if I would've had that banner. Also, remember that you don't want to go looking for assault when you don't need to with paladins. Their strengths are 1) massed relentless (preferrably prescienced) psycannons and 2)durability. It is a GREAT feeling when you roll 20 twin linked psycannon shots and watch something really expensive just melt away!

I am a fan of the stormchickens. Nothing says die hellturkey like a stormchicken.

The banner is great for two purposes in my mind 1) other melee deathstars and 2) melee hordes where you might get bogged down into 30 boyz/gaunts tarpits.

Yeah the general strategy for the paladin star is to occupy the midboard and shoot stuff into submission. Anything that gets too close will then have to deal with the melee love of a paladin star. That is one of the reasons I think the stormchickens will be good. They can kill the opponent's mobile units with relative reliability.

 ansacs wrote:
I am a fan of the stormchickens. Nothing says die hellturkey like a stormchicken.

The banner is great for two purposes in my mind 1) other melee deathstars and 2) melee hordes where you might get bogged down into 30 boyz/gaunts tarpits.

Yeah the general strategy for the paladin star is to occupy the midboard and shoot stuff into submission. Anything that gets too close will then have to deal with the melee love of a paladin star. That is one of the reasons I think the stormchickens will be good. They can kill the opponent's mobile units with relative reliability.

Agreed

Accord on the internet! Blasphemy!

 ansacs wrote:
Accord on the internet! Blasphemy!

I'm waiting for the site to go down because someone has acutally agreed with someone else