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So I'm getting heavily into Cyriss, and although they have a lot of cool options it's really only a matter of time before I have literally everything the faction has to offer. I know PP has said they don't intend to support it as a "full" faction but I think we'll probably get a few random things in the future. It already feels like we're loads better-supported than Minions, and probably on-par or better than Mercs, so there's that.

What are the chances we have a model or two in Vengeance? I'd love to see us get a character heavy and another 'caster. I mean, it doesn't really feel like our faction is really missing anything. Some UAs would be nice, as would your typical 3-man character unit that a lot of factions get.

If nothing else, I can't wait for the rest of the Cyriss models to come out. Some veritable must-buys are on the horizon (the battle engine, corollary, enigma foundries) and I really want to see what the second heavy chassis looks like on the table.

 Ostrakon wrote:
So I'm getting heavily into Cyriss, and although they have a lot of cool options it's really only a matter of time before I have literally everything the faction has to offer. I know PP has said they don't intend to support it as a "full" faction but I think we'll probably get a few random things in the future. It already feels like we're loads better-supported than Minions, and probably on-par or better than Mercs, so there's that.

What are the chances we have a model or two in Vengeance? I'd love to see us get a character heavy and another 'caster. I mean, it doesn't really feel like our faction is really missing anything. Some UAs would be nice, as would your typical 3-man character unit that a lot of factions get.

If nothing else, I can't wait for the rest of the Cyriss models to come out. Some veritable must-buys are on the horizon (the battle engine, corollary, enigma foundries) and I really want to see what the second heavy chassis looks like on the table.

I believe that they have outright stated that Cyriss is getting nothing in Vengeance, although they are expected to have units released in the warmachine expansion that follows Vengeance.

RegalPhantom wrote:


I believe that they have outright stated that Cyriss is getting nothing in Vengeance, although they are expected to have units released in the warmachine expansion that follows Vengeance.

That makes sense.

It just means they aren't going to get something in each and every release.

And really, buy the time people have gotten used to what has been released they'll start to get new stuff. There are plenty of things to play around with for a long while yet.

I'd expect them to receive similar support as retribution long term. I think PP just wanted to give themselves an out in case they bombed.

But remember that they put a bunch of new stuff for the other factions on hold to release these guys. And they are still releasing stuff for them.

Ultimately I believe it will depend on how well they sell.

Honestly, because of their crazy "x/y/z" stats carried from Casters down the line, I think this line can afford to have fewer models, and still be fresh and diverse. A single new Caster release could utterly change the feel/functionality of most of their options, which was a genius choice.

I was actually comparing the list of what Ret has compared to Cyriss and I was surprised to see how similar the list was. Aside from a couple character jacks Ret has the same number of Jack options. Only 2 more casters. More variety in infantry and solos but not by a whole lot, and that's not terribly surprising since Cyriss infantry is clearly based off of a couple of distinct chassis, probably to save sculpting time.

They are lacking character solos, jacks, and units.

Mind you, the odds of character jacks ever appearing are rather low, simply because of how Vectors work in the fluff. They're essentially nothing but puppets, as opposed to cortex-driven warjacks which have the intelligence and learning ability of a smart dog.

 Laughing Man wrote:
Mind you, the odds of character jacks ever appearing are rather low, simply because of how Vectors work in the fluff. They're essentially nothing but puppets, as opposed to cortex-driven warjacks which have the intelligence and learning ability of a smart dog.

This I disagree with. Some character jacks are very much "characters" (Ol' Rowdy, Deathjack, Thorn, etc) but some of them are clearly unique, relatively neutral pieces of tech that they could only build one of, like the Behemoth or the Thunderhead. I think if Cyriss gets a character vector it will fall into that category.

 Ostrakon wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:
Mind you, the odds of character jacks ever appearing are rather low, simply because of how Vectors work in the fluff. They're essentially nothing but puppets, as opposed to cortex-driven warjacks which have the intelligence and learning ability of a smart dog.

This I disagree with. Some character jacks are very much "characters" (Ol' Rowdy, Deathjack, Thorn, etc) but some of them are clearly unique, relatively neutral pieces of tech that they could only build one of, like the Behemoth or the Thunderhead. I think if Cyriss gets a character vector it will fall into that category.

Additionally, it is possible that we might get 'character jacks' that are awakened cultists in vector-like bodies as well. These would probably have rules similar to the avatar where they can't be allocated or induct focus, but generate their own.

RegalPhantom wrote:

 Ostrakon wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:
Mind you, the odds of character jacks ever appearing are rather low, simply because of how Vectors work in the fluff. They're essentially nothing but puppets, as opposed to cortex-driven warjacks which have the intelligence and learning ability of a smart dog.

This I disagree with. Some character jacks are very much "characters" (Ol' Rowdy, Deathjack, Thorn, etc) but some of them are clearly unique, relatively neutral pieces of tech that they could only build one of, like the Behemoth or the Thunderhead. I think if Cyriss gets a character vector it will fall into that category.

Additionally, it is possible that we might get 'character jacks' that are awakened cultists in vector-like bodies as well. These would probably have rules similar to the avatar where they can't be allocated or induct focus, but generate their own.

That's what I'm expecting. Might be why all the tier lists say "non character vectors" (kind of dumb of PP to put that in if they didn't at least leave the option open for character CoC vectors at some point).

Getting a Karchev style literal "jack caster" would be pretty cool too.

To be fair, PP has put in tons of things in the tiers that don't exist(yet).

Just to name a few Menoth ones.

Non-character Cavalry Solos, Non-character Flameguard Solos, Idrian Solos, etc...

 Grey Templar wrote:
To be fair, PP has put in tons of things in the tiers that don't exist(yet).

Just to name a few Menoth ones.

Non-character Cavalry Solos, Non-character Flameguard Solos, Idrian Solos, etc...

At least they're leaving themselves room to do cool stuff if they want to I guess. The less errata/rules change necessary the better in my opinion.

Also, not quite a character vector, but I totally think we should get Epic Axis as a warcaster with a jack damage grid. Seriously, if he did get inside a clockwork vessel would the guy not want his essence chamber stuck inside the biggest smashiest chassis he could get his (hands?) on...

 Mordekiem wrote:
I'd expect them to receive similar support as retribution long term. I think PP just wanted to give themselves an out in case they bombed.

The way PP does playtesting means they're already on the WM book after Vengeance. This means that if they predicated new CoC releases based on current sales and how it is after it finishes, this means there wouldn't really be a lot to shift playtesting towards adding to that book until th ebook after that. Which wouldn't be until about....2015/2016 about.

PP has said they are a limitted Faction, contrasting with the Retribution. They have similar amounts of options in their book as RoS had in their Forces book, but they are not guaranteed to have a "matched" set of releases like Retribution has. The Retribution has had new models at the same pace (a bit faster in Wrath) as the other main Warmachine Factions. Convergence has been stated so far as not having this be the case.

It will I think look more like the Privateer or Rhulic stuff in Mercenaries with new options over time than the Retribution I think.

 Mordekiem wrote:
But remember that they put a bunch of new stuff for the other factions on hold to release these guys. And they are still releasing stuff for them.

Ultimately I believe it will depend on how well they sell.

I think this would determine if they got more, but the nature of the Faction, as noted already, is such that new warcasters or solos affect it enough that any new releases are very impactful. This means they don't need the same volume fo support other Factions do, and they are likely harder to playtest anyhow. More means, again, like what Rhulic stuff has gotten (something each book) since MkII, rather than full Faction parity like Retribution has on volume of new things.

And stuff.

Personally I hope PP will stop trying to shoehorn 26th century mechs into Warmahordes and scrap the fraction.

Until that happens, I predict retribution-like support.

I'm not sure how "Metropolis" and 1920s is 26th Century myself, but to each their own.

But again, they aren't getting Retribution-style support. We have been told they are a limitted release Faction taht is not guaranteed new releases in future books. Retribution is a normal Faction that gets at least the same alotment of new items each anthology as Khador or Cygnar, they just started later.

And stuff.

I don't expect much. 1 new warcaster every 3 books or so maybe. Probably a new huge-based model during the next round of those.

 Blaque wrote:

But again, they aren't getting Retribution-style support. We have been told they are a limitted release Faction taht is not guaranteed new releases in future books. Retribution is a normal Faction that gets at least the same alotment of new items each anthology as Khador or Cygnar, they just started later.

And stuff.

No, we have not been told what kind of support they will or will not be getting. What we have been told is mostly generic rhetoric leaving the door open either way.

Which to me means that it will depend on different factors. And for a business that is out to make money the most likely factor will be money and how well the faction sells.

Any statements from posters saying COC will or will not be supported in the future is completely the opinion of the person saying such statement. My opinion is that long term (to me meaning over the next 2-3+years) they will get support similar to what Ret has gotten. Your opinion is that they won't.

The only way we will really know what kind of support the army gets is actual facts released by PP or time. Probably time.

 Mordekiem wrote:

No, we have not been told what kind of support they will or will not be getting. What we have been told is mostly generic rhetoric leaving the door open either way.

Which to me means that it will depend on different factors. And for a business that is out to make money the most likely factor will be money and how well the faction sells.

Any statements from posters saying COC will or will not be supported in the future is completely the opinion of the person saying such statement. My opinion is that long term (to me meaning over the next 2-3+years) they will get support similar to what Ret has gotten. Your opinion is that they won't.

The only way we will really know what kind of support the army gets is actual facts released by PP or time. Probably time.

Citation

It is not opinion that they are not to receive regular updates like Retribution of Scyrah does now. It is not an open door either. Convergence of Cyriss will not receive updates like other Warmachine Factions in each anthology. It is a status more like Privateer, Llaelese or Rhulic Mercenaries it seems, as needed and as they're interested to do them.

Retribution of Scyrah receives updates like other Factions: in every anthology book. Convergence of Cyriss is stated as not getting this. It is definitionally not "the same support as Retribution of Scyrah" as they are not receiving the same support as Retribution of Scyrah, which would be the same support the other four main Factions receive.

How much more releases actually are is another matter, but it's status as not compulsory to receive updates means it will likely never be as large a Faction as the other five Warmachine ones. This is somewhat compensated with their design, which allows for every new warjack to have as many variations of usefulness per-caster due to Field Marshal and the vector MAT/RAT stats. It also makes warcasters more impactful. New units are already future-proofed as well a bit.

Sales may help encourage them to add to the Faction, but the Faction seems to be designed with a smaller stable in mind. And as the development cycle of a model from concept to completetion can run as many as two to four years, if sales now indicate any increased amount of additions, they won't arrive until 2015ish and will likely still not do much to even gaps besides adding model type options.

And stuff.

 dementedwombat wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
To be fair, PP has put in tons of things in the tiers that don't exist(yet).

Just to name a few Menoth ones.

Non-character Cavalry Solos, Non-character Flameguard Solos, Idrian Solos, etc...

At least they're leaving themselves room to do cool stuff if they want to I guess. The less errata/rules change necessary the better in my opinion.

Also, not quite a character vector, but I totally think we should get Epic Axis as a warcaster with a jack damage grid. Seriously, if he did get inside a clockwork vessel would the guy not want his essence chamber stuck inside the biggest smashiest chassis he could get his (hands?) on...

Reading the fluff out of the CoC book leads me to believe Axis will never be made into a Clockwork Vessel as he is mentally unstable. It would be neat to see him intigrated into something that has a similar loadout though!

 Blaque wrote:
Citation

It is not opinion that they are not to receive regular updates like Retribution of Scyrah does now. It is not an open door either. Convergence of Cyriss will not receive updates like other Warmachine Factions in each anthology. It is a status more like Privateer, Llaelese or Rhulic Mercenaries it seems, as needed and as they're interested to do them.

Retribution of Scyrah receives updates like other Factions: in every anthology book. Convergence of Cyriss is stated as not getting this. It is definitionally not "the same support as Retribution of Scyrah" as they are not receiving the same support as Retribution of Scyrah, which would be the same support the other four main Factions receive.

How much more releases actually are is another matter, but it's status as not compulsory to receive updates means it will likely never be as large a Faction as the other five Warmachine ones. This is somewhat compensated with their design, which allows for every new warjack to have as many variations of usefulness per-caster due to Field Marshal and the vector MAT/RAT stats. It also makes warcasters more impactful. New units are already future-proofed as well a bit.

Sales may help encourage them to add to the Faction, but the Faction seems to be designed with a smaller stable in mind. And as the development cycle of a model from concept to completetion can run as many as two to four years, if sales now indicate any increased amount of additions, they won't arrive until 2015ish and will likely still not do much to even gaps besides adding model type options.

And stuff.

To you that is fact. To me it is rhetoric. I read that as PP hoping to under promising and over deliver. It is a tried and true business tactic. And if no money is to be made then it gives them an out without losing face.

I still think that if they are a popular faction that PP will keep giving them goodies. Frankly, if it is a cash cow then why wouldn't they keep supporting it?

Otherwise, yeah, I could see it slipping into the darker waters of mercs, or even worse, minions if it doesn't do well. But I'm not sure I see that happening.

The simple fact that they have NOT released more definite information indicates to me that the exact support is still up in the air.

I guess I'm not sure what more definite information ther eis. "Not going to get updates like the five other Factions in every anthology" pretty much reads to me pretty clear. I don't look deep into the rhetoric of statements, it's too ambiguous otherwise. What we have is the statements from PPS Simon in that thread which clearly state that Convergence is not going to get the same volume of updates that other Factions do. Saying there's some hidden meaning beyond that is a state of knowledge I don't generally buy.

I think, again, some Mercenary of Faction sub-theme stuff is a better idea of what Convergence might get. Now and again PP does do a few things in a theme. We saw a bunch of Trenchers in the Cygnar Forces book, there's been some Rhulic stuff each Warmachine thing in MkII and they tossed out a Steelehad warcaster, warjack and unit also.

I'm not doubting Convergence won't get things, but PP does have a balance between not just what's monetarily popular, but also what is interesting to add to things. It also is a matter of where they want resource spent. Convergence not getting a full Sixth Faction weight to have to be developed for each book means they have room for introducing other Factions. Its slower state in part probably is there so they can focus on other things, like whatever Faction Hordes might get for their 10th Anniversary, or non-WM/H subgames. Convergence probably has a range of what they'll add to it and an expected "if it is good enough, more stuff" range too. But I doubt they relaly intend to go fully equal releases for it since it's just logistically not in their structure as a Faction.

And stuff.