Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hello guys

Curious to know what your current tactical squad loadouts are, in terms of squad size, sergeant loadout, transport and heavy/special weaps.

Also included is a poll, count LC's as power weapons and TH as fists, for simplicity.

Cheers!

For my Dark Angels, I have two 10-man squads with plasma gun and cannon, and another 10-man with meltagun and heavy bolter. All my sergeants have a chainsword and storm bolter to bolster the shooting.

In my Chaos army, I run big squads. The aspiring champions have combi-bolters and either a power sword or a lightning claw.

Combi-melta, melta bombs, lightning claw, veteran upgrade. I play Salamanders, if it makes a difference.

As for the squad - ten men, with a flamer and a multimelta. All in a drop pod. Combat Squad almost always. Heavy weapon goes in one squad, special goes in another, sergeant gets assigned to the one I think he's most needed in.

Sgt has a combi-weapon that mirrors the special weapon of the squad. That's usually all the points I spend on him.

All my sergeants in my tactical squads have boltguns and chainswords.

I play a gunline DA army and as such all my squads are HB and Combi-Plasma.

You have a ton of options there, but at the end of the day it all depends on what your doing with them. Are you attacking? Drop podding? Rhino Rush? Sitting back? It matters what your planning to do to know the best load-out for you.

If your spending points on your Sergeants, go all the way or go naked. Veteran, Melta Bomb, Lightning Claw, Grav pistol.

Melta gives you MC/Vehicle melee capability, LC gives you AP 3+Shread for dealing with the chaff, grav pistol gives Terminators something to worry about and a chance to glance a vehicle at range. Veteran is +1 attack and +1 LD.

 BlkTom wrote:

If your spending points on your Sergeants, go all the way or go naked. Veteran, Melta Bomb, Lightning Claw, Grav pistol.

This is pretty silly advice IMO. Give your Sergeants what they need, and only what they need, to support the function of the entire squad.

Melta gives you MC/Vehicle melee capability, LC gives you AP 3+Shread for dealing with the chaff, grav pistol gives Terminators something to worry about and a chance to glance a vehicle at range. Veteran is +1 attack and +1 LD.

That build is only helpful if you are running your Tactical Squad as an assault squad. If the rest of your tactical squad is not build around assault, then you are spending 45 points to make a single Space Marine not suck so bad at Close Combat. It may not be so bad if you are running him with a flamer, but this build is better for an Assault Marine squad. But usually you have a guy who doesn't suck so bad in close combat with 4-9 other guys that have no business being in close combat.

Give your Sergeant what he needs to support the rest of the squad.

Run an anti-tank squad? Take a Lascannon, Melta, and Combi-Melta. Maybe a melta-bomb if so inclined.

Taking an anti-infantry squad? Take a Heavy Bolter or Plasma Cannon, Flamer, combi-flamer.

Taking an anti-heavy-infantry squad? Take a Plasma Cannon, Grav-gun, and combi-plasma or grav-pistol.

Whatever role your squad has, make him support it. He's part of the squad and should work in synergy with the other 4-9 guys. He's not a hero, he only has a 3+ save, he will die just as quick as all the other guys. For the price of giving him all you gave him you could have 3 more guys with a 3+ save shooting bolters a the enemy.

I am glad you totally ignored my first line of my post then, then do what I suggested. Go Naked or kit them out all the way for their job.

And the load out I gave was a generalist load out for flexibility to deal with any situation, not a end all be all.

Usually as a rule of thumb I do what D-usa said. Only thing I will add is that if you know that your sarg will be in the thick of the fighting (flamer squads mostly) then I always give them a melta bomb when I first make my list and if I need to lose some points at the end I will chip them off. The melta bomb is just to good for 5 points to lose out on a front line sarg.

 BlkTom wrote:
I am glad you totally ignored my first line of my post then, then do what I suggested. Go Naked or kit them out all the way for their job.

Your two statements are connected:

It matters what your planning to do to know the best load-out for you.

[but]

If your spending points on your Sergeants, go all the way or go naked. Veteran, Melta Bomb, Lightning Claw, Grav pistol.

You said you have to know the load out, but if you are spending points, then spend all the points. I did not read your points and get the impression that you think giving a sergeant a few upgrades is good and that instead you prefer "give them everything or give them nothing". Especially singe you gave a list of what you consider "all the way".

And the load out I gave was a generalist load out for flexibility to deal with any situation, not a end all be all.

95% of the time a specialist is better than a generalist who doesn't do anything well, he can't reliably deal with any situation despite having a ton of equipment because:

A) He doesn't have the support and synergy of his squad. He's a squad leader who depends on his squad to be effective, but who is pretending to be a lone-wolf character.
B) There is pretty much nothing that this guy will do better than a plain sergeant and 3 regular Space Marine.

Shooting: 1 grav-pistol vs. 4 bolters. A combi-weapon is always a better option IMO.
Casaulties: 3 more ablative wounds instead of a hero sergeant. That means that you can sacrifice three more tactical marines before you have to sacrifice your special, heavy, and sgt.
Overwatch: More overwatch shots.
Close Combat: Your guy gets 3 attacks on the charge, and he gets to shoot one grav-pistol before charging. 4 regular marines get 8 attacks on the charge, and they get to fire 4 bolt pistols. If you get charged you are swinging 2 attacks instead of 4 attacks. After having less overwatch fire of course.

Just because you can do more things, doesn't mean that you can do them well or that they are worth doing.

 BlkTom wrote:
You have a ton of options there, but at the end of the day it all depends on what your doing with them. Are you attacking? Drop podding? Rhino Rush? Sitting back? It matters what your planning to do to know the best load-out for you.

If your spending points on your Sergeants, go all the way or go naked. Veteran, Melta Bomb, Lightning Claw, Grav pistol.

Melta gives you MC/Vehicle melee capability, LC gives you AP 3+Shread for dealing with the chaff, grav pistol gives Terminators something to worry about and a chance to glance a vehicle at range. Veteran is +1 attack and +1 LD.

Ugh.

Never go 'all the way' on Sergeants, and never suffer from 'plasma pistol syndrome'. A Sergeant with a ton of shiny weapons doesn't scare anyone, and is usually wasted points. I find the proposition that Terminators have something to 'worry about' and the way you parade 'a chance to glance a vehicle' as though its not just some small print bonus somewhat hilarious.

As for taking melta, I would not ever unless using Salamanders. A squad with 2 melta weapons is about as capable of tackling a MC or a Land Raider as someone so put it in their sig on this forum, about as worthwhile as taking Dire Avengers for CC because 'their Exarch can kill a Carnifex!'

Why is that so relevant?

1) Dire Avengers are for shooting, and at that infantry, not MC's
2) Its not about the one model, its about all five models and making them worth the investment too - if you go tank hunting the other members of the squad are 14 point ablative wounds, which is a massive waste
3) Even though the potential is tangible it is unlikely to be effective overall - partly because of 4), and also because even in the ideal circumstance there is still a fair chance you will fail and your investment will be for naught, having wasted the other members of the squad
4) The Carnifex is an extremely rare model to see - vehicles are too rarely taken to compensate specifically for with one unit

If you take anything on a Sergeant, then the go-to choice should always be the combi-weapon because it benefits the focus and role of the squad, and isn't a random and situational advantage like a SCCW/PP.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

1) Dire Avengers are for shooting, and at that infantry, not MC's
2) Its not about the one model, its about all five models and making them worth the investment too - if you go tank hunting the other members of the squad are 14 point ablative wounds, which is a massive waste
3) Even though the potential is tangible it is unlikely to be effective overall - partly because of 4), and also because even in the ideal circumstance there is still a fair chance you will fail and your investment will be for naught, having wasted the other members of the squad
4) The Carnifex is an extremely rare model to see - vehicles are too rarely taken to compensate specifically for with one unit

This was a terribad example as the base assessment is true (do not take everything on a sarge) yet dire avengers are one of the best anti MC in the game, point for point (blade storm wounds and makes the shot AP2 on a 6 against anything, each 5 man squad will usually do 2 wounds).

5 Man TAC squads with a melta and multi-melta are actually pretty good against vehicles. They have a 40% chance to pop a landraider or leman russ, both tanks you see fairly commonly in dark angels and imperial guard builds respectively. This loadout is also brutal against chimeras, wavesepent from the rear (which is a distinct possibility if you drop pod them in), and ork battle wagons.

Finally your assertion that MC and/or vehicles are rare is just mind boggling. There are at least 10 threads on this forum alone talking about dealing with different types of mechanized lists.


As for the OP question I always go with a naked TAC squad for objective holding or if I have points I give them a special weapon and a combi-same weapon. The melta bombs are the only melee upgrade that is really useful.

 ansacs wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

1) Dire Avengers are for shooting, and at that infantry, not MC's
2) Its not about the one model, its about all five models and making them worth the investment too - if you go tank hunting the other members of the squad are 14 point ablative wounds, which is a massive waste
3) Even though the potential is tangible it is unlikely to be effective overall - partly because of 4), and also because even in the ideal circumstance there is still a fair chance you will fail and your investment will be for naught, having wasted the other members of the squad
4) The Carnifex is an extremely rare model to see - vehicles are too rarely taken to compensate specifically for with one unit

This was a terribad example as the base assessment is true (do not take everything on a sarge) yet dire avengers are one of the best anti MC in the game, point for point (blade storm wounds and makes the shot AP2 on a 6 against anything, each 5 man squad will usually do 2 wounds).

5 Man TAC squads with a melta and multi-melta are actually pretty good against vehicles. They have a 40% chance to pop a landraider or leman russ, both tanks you see fairly commonly in dark angels and imperial guard builds respectively. This loadout is also brutal against chimeras, wavesepent from the rear (which is a distinct possibility if you drop pod them in), and ork battle wagons.

Finally your assertion that MC and/or vehicles are rare is just mind boggling. There are at least 10 threads on this forum alone talking about dealing with different types of mechanized lists.


As for the OP question I always go with a naked TAC squad for objective holding or if I have points I give them a special weapon and a combi-same weapon. The melta bombs are the only melee upgrade that is really useful.

Truth be told it was a quote from the previous edition but whatever.

5 man Melta Tac squads are 'good' statistically against vehicles, I will give you that, but all of the vehicles you described, other than maybe the Leman Russ and Wave Serpent, either aren't common overall in the meta or are easily neutralized with non melta AT.

However, taking a 130~ pt unit for the sole purpose of killing a unit that is rarely seen in competitive/tournament levels and can't handle the far more threatening and common MC as well (yes you completely misinterpreted that) with only a 40% chance of success, that needs to be in a pair of units to be truly worth it (as a result of the point just stated) and that wastes the points spent on every other member of the squad, who won't be doing anything other than to serve as expensive ablative wounds for an inefficient suicide mission.

I see it as far better to take a unit that can do both AT and Anti-MC simultaneously, and effectively. Mechanized lists outside of maybe this Wave Serpent spam and a few others are scarcely the sort of list that soils my trousers, and melta is about as useful as plasma against GEQ against them. Seriously, I could count the number of medium-heavy vehicles I saw at my last three tournaments (11 games overall, two at Warhammer World and one as practice for the 40k ETC team) on one hand.

Pre-6th-ed Codex Tau Hammerhead, two Hellbrutes (suffice to say that person did not do well at that tournament, or in that game) a Maulerfiend (he didn't do well either) and nothing else if I remember correctly.

Non medium/heavy vehicles? Only one that comes to mind is a single Land Speeder with heavy bolter/assault cannon at present (the choice of the former weapon should be indicative of how well they did)

On the other hand, I faced Riptide spam, Tervigon spam, Hive Tyrants/Daemon Prince/Blood Thirster berserker units/set ups and a couple of other MC's quite often. The only vehicles I saw that hand me concerned were flyers. Everyone I've heard from has said the same, and tournament rankings lend some weight to this assertion as well.

Are you really not seeing manticores, sky rays, waveserpents, fire prisms, warwalkers, dakka banner land raiders, or mortis contemptor dreadnoughts? Nothing gets rid of any vehicle the turn you fire better than a melta. Even against AV10 the melta is a better explosion chance than a double tap plasma.

It is usually hard to "waste" bolter fire for 1 turn. I am not saying you should shoot them at nothing but tanks but a 5 man TAC squad of bolter fire is hardly effective anti infantry in the first place. They are usually out shot by almost any unit in the game point for point. There fore the anti MC is better on grav bikes and the better anti infantry is TFC. Some drop podding TAC squads with melta can help open cans turn 1 or keep the transports off you front porch.

BTW if you are salamanders or smurfs you can actually do some decent AA with reroll to hit melta. You have ~20% chance to kill a nightscythe. Not terrible if you need it (plasma does the same HP and has 1/2 the chance to explode).

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 BlkTom wrote:
You have a ton of options there, but at the end of the day it all depends on what your doing with them. Are you attacking? Drop podding? Rhino Rush? Sitting back? It matters what your planning to do to know the best load-out for you.

If your spending points on your Sergeants, go all the way or go naked. Veteran, Melta Bomb, Lightning Claw, Grav pistol.

Melta gives you MC/Vehicle melee capability, LC gives you AP 3+Shread for dealing with the chaff, grav pistol gives Terminators something to worry about and a chance to glance a vehicle at range. Veteran is +1 attack and +1 LD.

Ugh.

Never go 'all the way' on Sergeants, and never suffer from 'plasma pistol syndrome'. A Sergeant with a ton of shiny weapons doesn't scare anyone, and is usually wasted points. I find the proposition that Terminators have something to 'worry about' and the way you parade 'a chance to glance a vehicle' as though its not just some small print bonus somewhat hilarious.

As for taking melta, I would not ever unless using Salamanders. A squad with 2 melta weapons is about as capable of tackling a MC or a Land Raider as someone so put it in their sig on this forum, about as worthwhile as taking Dire Avengers for CC because 'their Exarch can kill a Carnifex!'

Why is that so relevant?

1) Dire Avengers are for shooting, and at that infantry, not MC's
2) Its not about the one model, its about all five models and making them worth the investment too - if you go tank hunting the other members of the squad are 14 point ablative wounds, which is a massive waste
3) Even though the potential is tangible it is unlikely to be effective overall - partly because of 4), and also because even in the ideal circumstance there is still a fair chance you will fail and your investment will be for naught, having wasted the other members of the squad
4) The Carnifex is an extremely rare model to see - vehicles are too rarely taken to compensate specifically for with one unit

If you take anything on a Sergeant, then the go-to choice should always be the combi-weapon because it benefits the focus and role of the squad, and isn't a random and situational advantage like a SCCW/PP.

I agree.

Hence the reason why the thread is about the tac squads too, not just about the sergeants in that squad. The poll is about the sergeants, that is all.