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Hi everyone, I was playing a game of vassal 40k tonight, and I feel this guy was really doing some weird stuff.

First off I wrecked a vehicle of his, and he had to emergency disembark, well what we had was a piece of terrain like this (according to him)



So his speeder vehicle was pressed up against the outside wall of the building above, well it blows up and he has a 3 inch disembark and puts his models INSiDE of the buildings, telling me this is perfectly acceptable, not to mention the fact that his units were halfway in the "wall" of the building like shadowcat from the x-men. So my question is this, can you emergency disembark THROUGH a wall?

To me this makes absolutely zero sense, and even if it is RAW I still think it is garbage, and makes absolutely zero sense. If I can't move through a wall during normal gameplay, what in the world would give me the right to do so during an emergency disembarkation which is supposed to be a forced action. because your vehicle has been shot to crap.

Well its a ruins. Read the section on Walls, Doors, Ladders and Lateral Thinking on page 99. And you have just as much right to move through the wall during normal game play as he does during emergency disembarking. Unless you decided before the match they may not do such a movement, then they can, the wall is just difficult terrain.

The guy in the wall though is an interesting case. We technically have permission to move through the wall, so I suppose you could stop in the wall, if you can somehow place the model and apply Wobbly Model Syndrome rule. But I would be more inclined to say he would have to have the base of the miniature on one side or the other of the wall, unless he balanced it in a window or some such. I wonder if the guy would be considered to have a cover save or not. Well, on the building you show he would because it is on a base which means he would be in area terrain, as per page 98, Ruins with Base.

Now, it been an impassible building (any building that cannot be embarked in) or an embarkable building (such as fortification) he would not have been able to emergency disembark through those walls. And, even if it was a fortification, and his speeder was up against the embarkation point, he still would not be able to emergency disembark, then embark into the fortification all in one turn.

Rumbleguts wrote:
Well its a ruins. Read the section on Walls, Doors, Ladders and Lateral Thinking on page 99. And you have just as much right to move through the wall during normal game play as he does during emergency disembarking. Unless you decided before the match they may not do such a movement, then they can, the wall is just difficult terrain.

The guy in the wall though is an interesting case. We technically have permission to move through the wall, so I suppose you could stop in the wall, if you can somehow place the model and apply Wobbly Model Syndrome rule. But I would be more inclined to say he would have to have the base of the miniature on one side or the other of the wall, unless he balanced it in a window or some such. I wonder if the guy would be considered to have a cover save or not. Well, on the building you show he would because it is on a base which means he would be in area terrain, as per page 98, Ruins with Base.

Now, it been an impassible building (any building that cannot be embarked in) or an embarkable building (such as fortification) he would not have been able to emergency disembark through those walls. And, even if it was a fortification, and his speeder was up against the embarkation point, he still would not be able to emergency disembark, then embark into the fortification all in one turn.

Rumbleguts, the thing to take into account is that 1) this is vassal so there are no doors, windows etc showing and really we never determined if it was a ruins with windows etc, to me it just looks like a square building and it blocks my line of sight, and 2) it says that those things should be decided before a match, not when it is advantageous to you in the middle of the match, then quit the game because your opponent isn't going for your side-skirting of the rules. not going for it.

Standard rules legal, but WMS can not be used as a justification for being halfway though a wall in which the model could clearly not be placed. WMS only allows for its use where a model could be placed but it is likely to fall over due to incline or uneven surface that the models base can fit on. So I'd say place the model completly within the distance, meaning on the outside of the wall. Though if the vehicle blew up they would not disembark at all but be placed in the crater where the vehicle once was, if it was wrecked then sure an emergency disembark fine.

As to the building being a box, due to the top down view in Vassal, well that's again something you should discuss with your opponent before a battle. What to treat the terrain as is a big part of that. That 'Box' could be impassable, an embarkable building, a ruin or whatever.

Niexist wrote:

Rumbleguts wrote:
Well its a ruins. Read the section on Walls, Doors, Ladders and Lateral Thinking on page 99. And you have just as much right to move through the wall during normal game play as he does during emergency disembarking. Unless you decided before the match they may not do such a movement, then they can, the wall is just difficult terrain.

The guy in the wall though is an interesting case. We technically have permission to move through the wall, so I suppose you could stop in the wall, if you can somehow place the model and apply Wobbly Model Syndrome rule. But I would be more inclined to say he would have to have the base of the miniature on one side or the other of the wall, unless he balanced it in a window or some such. I wonder if the guy would be considered to have a cover save or not. Well, on the building you show he would because it is on a base which means he would be in area terrain, as per page 98, Ruins with Base.

Now, it been an impassible building (any building that cannot be embarked in) or an embarkable building (such as fortification) he would not have been able to emergency disembark through those walls. And, even if it was a fortification, and his speeder was up against the embarkation point, he still would not be able to emergency disembark, then embark into the fortification all in one turn.

Rumbleguts, the thing to take into account is that 1) this is vassal so there are no doors, windows etc showing and really we never determined if it was a ruins with windows etc, to me it just looks like a square building and it blocks my line of sight, and 2) it says that those things should be decided before a match, not when it is advantageous to you in the middle of the match, then quit the game because your opponent isn't going for your side-skirting of the rules. not going for it.

I believe agreeing to not go through walls is something which should be agree'd on, rather than having to agree on being able to go through walls, which I always thought was the default rule

Niexist wrote:

Rumbleguts wrote:
Well its a ruins. Read the section on Walls, Doors, Ladders and Lateral Thinking on page 99. And you have just as much right to move through the wall during normal game play as he does during emergency disembarking. Unless you decided before the match they may not do such a movement, then they can, the wall is just difficult terrain.

The guy in the wall though is an interesting case. We technically have permission to move through the wall, so I suppose you could stop in the wall, if you can somehow place the model and apply Wobbly Model Syndrome rule. But I would be more inclined to say he would have to have the base of the miniature on one side or the other of the wall, unless he balanced it in a window or some such. I wonder if the guy would be considered to have a cover save or not. Well, on the building you show he would because it is on a base which means he would be in area terrain, as per page 98, Ruins with Base.

Now, it been an impassible building (any building that cannot be embarked in) or an embarkable building (such as fortification) he would not have been able to emergency disembark through those walls. And, even if it was a fortification, and his speeder was up against the embarkation point, he still would not be able to emergency disembark, then embark into the fortification all in one turn.

Rumbleguts, the thing to take into account is that 1) this is vassal so there are no doors, windows etc showing and really we never determined if it was a ruins with windows etc, to me it just looks like a square building and it blocks my line of sight, and 2) it says that those things should be decided before a match, not when it is advantageous to you in the middle of the match, then quit the game because your opponent isn't going for your side-skirting of the rules. not going for it.

The default is you can move through walls of ruins. If you read into the rules. As long as it was stated to be a Ruin, then this was perfectly legal

If you DIDNT want them to be able to move through walls you had to state this before the game.

Ah the good old confusion between Buildings and Ruins.
If it was a building as the title suggests, then they cannot embark into the building (can't voluntarily disembark and embark in the same turn - p78).
Ruins are fair game.

Niexist wrote:

Rumbleguts wrote:
Well its a ruins. Read the section on Walls, Doors, Ladders and Lateral Thinking on page 99. And you have just as much right to move through the wall during normal game play as he does during emergency disembarking. Unless you decided before the match they may not do such a movement, then they can, the wall is just difficult terrain.

The guy in the wall though is an interesting case. We technically have permission to move through the wall, so I suppose you could stop in the wall, if you can somehow place the model and apply Wobbly Model Syndrome rule. But I would be more inclined to say he would have to have the base of the miniature on one side or the other of the wall, unless he balanced it in a window or some such. I wonder if the guy would be considered to have a cover save or not. Well, on the building you show he would because it is on a base which means he would be in area terrain, as per page 98, Ruins with Base.

Now, it been an impassible building (any building that cannot be embarked in) or an embarkable building (such as fortification) he would not have been able to emergency disembark through those walls. And, even if it was a fortification, and his speeder was up against the embarkation point, he still would not be able to emergency disembark, then embark into the fortification all in one turn.

Rumbleguts, the thing to take into account is that 1) this is vassal so there are no doors, windows etc showing and really we never determined if it was a ruins with windows etc, to me it just looks like a square building and it blocks my line of sight, and 2) it says that those things should be decided before a match, not when it is advantageous to you in the middle of the match, then quit the game because your opponent isn't going for your side-skirting of the rules. not going for it.

What is Vassal?

The building in your picture lacks walls to fully enclose the interior space and is missing a roof. I would call that a ruins by definition of page 98, top paragraph. As others pointed out, default rule is they can move through such walls, it requires negotiation between players before the match to make them impassible.

Vassal is a top down tabletop simulator.

 Bausk wrote:
Standard rules legal, but WMS can not be used as a justification for being halfway though a wall in which the model could clearly not be placed. WMS only allows for its use where a model could be placed but it is likely to fall over due to incline or uneven surface that the models base can fit on.

But in the case of a ruin, models are allowed to move through the wall as if it weren't there, so they can stop halfway through the ruined wall, no WMS rule needed. (Granted this works in vassal as it is a comp program, in real life the model cannot physically fit there so you have to place the model close enough and let your opponent know where your models are).

 grendel083 wrote:
Ah the good old confusion between Buildings and Ruins.
If it was a building as the title suggests, then they cannot embark into the building (can't voluntarily disembark and embark in the same turn - p78).
Ruins are fair game.

Well that really has no bearing on the situation as the unit in the transport is not voluntarily disembarking from the transport...

 DeathReaper wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Ah the good old confusion between Buildings and Ruins.
If it was a building as the title suggests, then they cannot embark into the building (can't voluntarily disembark and embark in the same turn - p78).
Ruins are fair game.

Well that really has no bearing on the situation as the unit in the transport is not voluntarily disembarking from the transport...

True it didn't voluntarily disembark.
But it is then voluntarily embarking following a disembark.
So the rule still applies.

 grendel083 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Ah the good old confusion between Buildings and Ruins.
If it was a building as the title suggests, then they cannot embark into the building (can't voluntarily disembark and embark in the same turn - p78).
Ruins are fair game.

Well that really has no bearing on the situation as the unit in the transport is not voluntarily disembarking from the transport...

True it didn't voluntarily disembark.
But it is then voluntarily embarking following a disembark.
So the rule still applies.

No the rule does not apply, because they are restricted from voluntarily disembarking and then embarking in the same turn. If they did not voluntarily disembark the rule does not apply.

The rule that would apply (if it were a building) is the one that says units can only embark in their movement phase.

Since the transport was wrecked in the opponent's shooting phase, it doesn't matter whether the passengers performed a normal or emergency disembark, they could not embark into a building until their next movement phase.

If they could not even emergency disembark due to the building, they would be destroyed.

But in the OP question, the passengers could emergency disembark into the ruin, unless it was deemed impassable terrain, as has been stated.

They have disembarked. They are then voluntarily choosing to embark in the same turn. Something not allowed.
You can't voluntarily preform both actions. The fact that the first action wasn't voluntary doesn't matter, it still happened, but then you're choosing the second action. And choosing to do both isn't allowed.
If the second action isn't voluntary, that's fine, you haven't chosen to do both actions, you've been forced into it. This is also covered in the rule with the example of embarking then having your transport destroyed.

That particular sentence might not apply 100%, though Grendel is doing a good job arguing that at least one of those choices are voluntary and therefore illegal, but the sentence right before it clearly makes it illegal. That would be the one stating a model can only voluntarily embark during the movement phase. Even if a transport is destroyed by enemy fire and the models inside are forced to disembark, the action of embarking into a building during this process is still voluntary and can only be done during that players movement phase. The only way said models could carry out such an action would be to emergency disembark during their movement phase, a rare situation but possible, then voluntarily embark afterwards.

This is further compounded by the probability of having every model disembarking being in the required distance of the access point. If you limit this access point to just a building it becomes a near impossibility, as terrain begins at least three or four inches from each other during deployment. The bases of the disembarking unit are probably more then enough to place at lease one model outside of that required distance, unless you have a one or three model unit to begin. After all the most likely, probably only, way to emergency disembark during your turn is if terrain causes your vehicle to wreck itself. It would be possible to raise this probability by running a second, empty, transport but that would still be very low probability numbers. Whom really purchases as second transport, deploying it empty and then keeping it's access point within six inches of every point on the first transport?

To naturally find yourself in the right situation to exploit this loophole is a once in a life time thing.

....Ninja'd by Time Wizard....

 grendel083 wrote:
They have disembarked. They are then voluntarily choosing to embark in the same turn. Something not allowed.
You can't voluntarily preform both actions. The fact that the first action wasn't voluntary doesn't matter, it still happened, but then you're choosing the second action. And choosing to do both isn't allowed.
If the second action isn't voluntary, that's fine, you haven't chosen to do both actions, you've been forced into it. This is also covered in the rule with the example of embarking then having your transport destroyed.

Re-read the rule, note what it requires.

You can not voluntarily do both. With emergency disembarking you are not voluntarily disembarking so that rule does not apply.

I have read it.
By choosing to embark, you're voluntarily disembarking and embarking in the same turn. Which the rule does not allow.

Wouldn't it be more of a matter that emergency disembarking is a subrule of disembarking rather then something all its own? So an emergency disembark would still be disembarking, thus not allowing embarking. Plus ... you can only embark on your movement phase, no way to involuntarily embark a building.

But rereading embarking rules it keeps using voluntary, I suppose if a vehicle was somehow destroyed in that player's movement phase you could argue that the emergency disembark wouldn't count against the unit voluntarily embarking elsewhere. But that seems really cheesy and against the intent.

 grendel083 wrote:
I have read it.
By choosing to embark, you're voluntarily disembarking and embarking in the same turn. Which the rule does not allow.

Incorrect, you are not voluntarily disembarking...

 DeathReaper wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
I have read it.
By choosing to embark, you're voluntarily disembarking and embarking in the same turn. Which the rule does not allow.

Incorrect, you are not voluntarily disembarking...

Doesnt matter.
You have disembarked, voluntarily or not. Now there is a choice to embark, or move somewhere else.
By voluntarily embarking, you have disembarked and embarked in a single turn. And done so voluntarily. You have broken the rule.
You'll note the rule does not say both actions must be voluntary, but the net result of embarking and disembarking.

As above - grendel has the right of it here. IT is irrelevant as far as the rule is concerned whether or not both actions were voluntary.

If you did not voluntarily disembark, how can a rule that restricts you from voluntarily disembarking and voluntarily embarking apply?

Because you are parsing the sentence incorrectly, thats why.

It is voluntarily (embark or disembark) - the voluntary can apply to either term (although I cant think of when you woudl involuntarily embark...)

Actually it's voluntarily (embark AND disembark). Simple boolean logic would tell you that if you didn't voluntarily disembark the rule doesn't apply.

You can also dive into the murky RAI waters and say that if they didn't want you to be able to embark after a forced disembarkation why would the word voluntarily be included at all?

Finally the only way you can pull this off is if you manage, somehow, to wreck a transport during your own movement phase or if you thread a needle with a drop pod and the now disembarked unit is wholly within 2" of an access point.

Immobilising a transport through a failed DT test will do it, if it has a single hull point left.

 Tarrasq wrote:
Actually it's voluntarily (embark AND disembark). Simple boolean logic would tell you that if you didn't voluntarily disembark the rule doesn't apply.

100% this.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Bausk wrote:
Standard rules legal, but WMS can not be used as a justification for being halfway though a wall in which the model could clearly not be placed. WMS only allows for its use where a model could be placed but it is likely to fall over due to incline or uneven surface that the models base can fit on.

But in the case of a ruin, models are allowed to move through the wall as if it weren't there, so they can stop halfway through the ruined wall, no WMS rule needed. (Granted this works in vassal as it is a comp program, in real life the model cannot physically fit there so you have to place the model close enough and let your opponent know where your models are).

Move though, not stop in. Movement cannot end where a model cannot be placed, its as simple as that. Exceptions are expected but not in this case. As for the letting your opponent know where they are, that is apart of the WMS so you're applying WMS to something you claim does not require it...Great job there.

 Bausk wrote:
Move though, not stop in. Movement cannot end where a model cannot be placed, its as simple as that.

Citation needed. The rules for difficult terrain - which ruins are - say I can move through solid objects, and they don't say anything about not being able to stop in them, and neither does anything I can find in the movement phase rules.

Since enbarking into buildings follows the transports rule, can a unit disembark from one and embark into another transport? It would be awful difficult to do so when you have to start the movement phase within 2" of the access point, isn't it?

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
It would be awful difficult to do so when you have to start the movement phase within 2" of the access point, isn't it?

There are numerous issues with this plan, but this isn't one of them. You merely have to move to within 2" of the access point with each model.