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Hey guys,
Currently playing a game where I'm up against a fellow CSM player, it's 3k apiece and as his Warlord he has chosen Ahriman thereby granting him Master of Deception as a warlord trait.
He rolled and got 3 unit's to infiltrate, the rule say's it must be infantry but he's trying to put them in a landraider and infiltrate that!
He's also arguing that his HQ, unit and Landraider all count as 1 unit for the purpose of infiltrating them.
Please tell me I'm in the right and infantry means just infantry and that a HQ count's as a second model with these term's.
The's the game's already started and I've allowed him to infiltrate it's more a matter of point now hahaha, petty of me but what's a boy to do?

he's right, if his HQ is infantry he can join that to a squad (doesn't have to be infantry) and put them in a LR if the LR is a dedicated transport


Automatically Appended Next Post:
infiltrate in a unit does not confer to an IC, but an IC with infiltrate can confer to a unit

 chillis wrote:
he's right, if his HQ is infantry he can join that to a squad (doesn't have to be infantry) and put them in a LR if the LR is a dedicated transport


Automatically Appended Next Post:
infiltrate in a unit does not confer to an IC, but an IC with infiltrate can confer to a unit

Not true. In order for an IC to start the game with a unit they either must be in reserves, or deployed in coherency. If the unit does not have Infiltrate, they are deployed with the rest of the army. Then when Infiltrators are deployed, the IC would be deployed.

 Happyjew wrote:

 chillis wrote:
he's right, if his HQ is infantry he can join that to a squad (doesn't have to be infantry) and put them in a LR if the LR is a dedicated transport


Automatically Appended Next Post:
infiltrate in a unit does not confer to an IC, but an IC with infiltrate can confer to a unit

Not true. In order for an IC to start the game with a unit they either must be in reserves, or deployed in coherency. If the unit does not have Infiltrate, they are deployed with the rest of the army. Then when Infiltrators are deployed, the IC would be deployed.

IC can start the game with a unit; warlord trait, master of deception, happens before the game starts. gives the IC infiltrate he gives the rest of the unit infiltrate

 chillis wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 chillis wrote:
he's right, if his HQ is infantry he can join that to a squad (doesn't have to be infantry) and put them in a LR if the LR is a dedicated transport


Automatically Appended Next Post:
infiltrate in a unit does not confer to an IC, but an IC with infiltrate can confer to a unit

Not true. In order for an IC to start the game with a unit they either must be in reserves, or deployed in coherency. If the unit does not have Infiltrate, they are deployed with the rest of the army. Then when Infiltrators are deployed, the IC would be deployed.

IC can start the game with a unit; warlord trait, master of deception, happens before the game starts. gives the IC infiltrate he gives the rest of the unit infiltrate

No, because they would be deployed at different times. The only way an IC can start on the board with a unit is by being deployed in coherency. If one part has Infiltrate and the other does not, they are deployed at two different times.

 chillis wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 chillis wrote:
he's right, if his HQ is infantry he can join that to a squad (doesn't have to be infantry) and put them in a LR if the LR is a dedicated transport


Automatically Appended Next Post:
infiltrate in a unit does not confer to an IC, but an IC with infiltrate can confer to a unit

Not true. In order for an IC to start the game with a unit they either must be in reserves, or deployed in coherency. If the unit does not have Infiltrate, they are deployed with the rest of the army. Then when Infiltrators are deployed, the IC would be deployed.

IC can start the game with a unit; warlord trait, master of deception, happens before the game starts. gives the IC infiltrate he gives the rest of the unit infiltrate

Read page 39, and note that it requires them to be deployed in coherency. Youre wrong, Happy is right

I'll admit that its a grey area for when the rule confers because you have the DT that he starts in along with the units. An IC can start in a DT and so can the unit. They have to deploy at the same time and will have the special rule because they are in coherency. The one place that is black and white when it is allowed is if they IC with the unit outflanks


Automatically Appended Next Post:
or is my reasoning completely illogical

 chillis wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 chillis wrote:
he's right, if his HQ is infantry he can join that to a squad (doesn't have to be infantry) and put them in a LR if the LR is a dedicated transport


Automatically Appended Next Post:
infiltrate in a unit does not confer to an IC, but an IC with infiltrate can confer to a unit

Not true. In order for an IC to start the game with a unit they either must be in reserves, or deployed in coherency. If the unit does not have Infiltrate, they are deployed with the rest of the army. Then when Infiltrators are deployed, the IC would be deployed.

IC can start the game with a unit; warlord trait, master of deception, happens before the game starts. gives the IC infiltrate he gives the rest of the unit infiltrate

As to the Land Raider, if it's Dedicated, then it will benefit from the unit's Infiltrate. For an IC and a unit to both start outside their deployment zone, they must BOTH have Infiltrate (with the possible exception of Shrike).

You have to understand the timing of deployment and ICs joining units. Tell me, Chillis, when does an IC join a unit?

Infiltrators are deployed after the rest of the force (including the IC).
This isn't optional if you look at the infiltrator rules. So when the IC is deployed, the infiltrating is not on the table, nor is it in reserve (the only two times the IC can join).

So wither or not the IC confer's infiltrate is up for debate the Landraider won't be allowed to infiltrate then as it's not a dedicated transport. Sadly that privilege is limited to Terminators.
Does everyone agree with me though that infiltrating 3 land raider's is not something master of deception can do?
(At least for cult troop's and their respective HQ)
Do people also agree that if it was allowed it would count as either 6 or 9 units rather than 3 (6 or 9 depending wither or not an IC confer's Infiltrate)

It would be legal, but only if the units chosen for Infiltration were HQ characters, who then joined Terminators who happened to take Land Raiders as dedicated tranports.
You would therefore be limited to 2 at most, and under very limiting conditions.
It would still count as '1' Infiltrator however.

Mozza - NO, it would not work then. All you could do would be to infiltrate 3 terminator units in 3 landraiders, NO attached ICs

If you give the IC infiltrate, then he must deploy after non-infiltrators, which is when the terminators must be deployed - meaning the terminators cannot infiltrate.

Vice versa - the ic must be deployed on the table before the terminators, so cannot infiltrate.

It really is that simple, and is all very clearly laid out on page 39. THis also hasnt altered since the 5th edition rulebook, as it took a FAQ during 5th to allow ICs to join units prior to deploying them.

If they are termies it counts as 3 units (ICs are separate so if you had three it would be 6 at this point). Finally if they aren't termies, slap your opponent in the face repeatedly until he stops taking up HS slots with CSM land raiders, even with double FOC.

Related to this, Say Huron is the Warlord and gets 2 units infiltrating. He can use one Infiltration on himself, and another on say just a cultist squad. He would then be able to infiltrate with that unit correct?

Correct,