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Does the Vindicare Assasin's shield breaker round have an effect on the Grimoire from Codex: Daemons? I found this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/548607.page but it didn't seem to really go into enough detail on this specific question. I'm not very familiar with the Daemon codex so I wasn't sure if it was "wargear" or something else, and wanted to get the opinions of Dakka, especially as this is being touted in some circles as a counter to the screamerstar.

No, the grimoire improves a save but doesn't give one. Thus the shield breaker has no effect (as they get their invu save from the daemon rule and not wargear).

The best thing to do would be to snipe the IC with the Grimoire, since those wounds can't be re-allocated in any way. Then NO ONE gets the Grimoire! And the best save the IC with the Grimoire has is a 4++ (from Forewarning), since the Grimoire doesn't affect the bearer's save.
(The unit could go to ground for a better cover save, but at that point you've crippled what you're shooting at for a round, which was the original intent!)

No; the grimoire modifies the roll itself, not the save.

Ok sounds good, thanks!

take GK's and use Dark Ex (not sure of the power name) but it gets rid of gifts, which the Grimoire is.

edited: Duh, obviously you are using GK if you have a vindi
Doh!

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
No; the grimoire modifies the roll itself, not the save.

"-1 penalty to their invulnerable saves"

It alters the value of the save.

Honestly, Nosferatu1001, it is hard to tell at times if they mean the save characteristic or the save throw, as they have defined both in the book. At work, so I do not have the book in front of me, but somewhere around the section detailing the different types of saves it defines 'saving throws' as 'X save' even though that terminology was previously used in the characteristic section of the book. It even talks about modifying saving throws directly at points, specifically stating you are modifying the throw . More then enough 'gray terminology' to give support for the interpenetration that 'x saves' modification are instead applied to the dice.

All in all, I find it easier not to argue over such a schematic though as it is a moot point:

Definition for modifying saving throws inform us that throw of 1 always fails regardless of the modifications.
Saving characteristic can not be 'improved' below 2, regardless of how many modifications are in play.
Both end up with the very same final result....

Their "save" IS the characteristic value you have to match or beat on a saving throw. A penalty to the save is a penalty to the value of the characteristic, NOT the throw.

As I mentioned, I find arguing over it pointless.

Just look through the section of the book that talks about saving throws, including the wording in go to ground especially if I am remembering right. How you want to play it after you read those section of the book is entirely up to you, as it doesn't matter either way. As far as I am concerned it is just another example of Game Workshop using identical or near identical terminology for two different things. It just happens to be the two terms are related on some level, creating the same end result, so it is less bothersome then most.

Whcih does indeed make a change for GW, as usually they cause quite amusing issues in the game....!

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
No; the grimoire modifies the roll itself, not the save.

"-1 penalty to their invulnerable saves"

It alters the value of the save.

Which can be read as an action. You take a -1 penalty to the action of making saves. You gain a +2 bonus to the action of making invulnerable saves.

At any rate the Invulnerable saves are based on being Daemons, not a piece of wargear(the modification, whether to the stat or the roll is) so shield breaker does not remove the invulnerable save.

Not usually, it would mean the instance of the group having multiple saves of type invulnerable - which, in context, they do. Their invulnerable saving throw would have to be used to specify the action taken, as opposed to the stat

Agreed that it matters not one jot....

You are better off just shooting the grimoire holder with the rounds that do 2 wounds sonce the grimoire doesn't effect the holder IIRC or maybe I'm just making stuff up in my head

well, and someone correct me if I am wrong since i dont have the grimore rules in front of me, but the sheild breaker round has to be allocated to the the bearer of the wargear that grants the save,

and the grimore doesnt help out its bearer at all, so even if it does "grant" the new save, it doesnt matter, as the wargear bearer doesnt benifit from the save in the first place, so either way you cant really sheild breaker it.

 A GumyBear wrote:
You are better off just shooting the grimoire holder with the rounds that do 2 wounds sonce the grimoire doesn't effect the holder IIRC or maybe I'm just making stuff up in my head

I said this in the third post. *mutter* trying to steal the credit *mutter*

 easysauce wrote:
well, and someone correct me if I am wrong since i dont have the grimore rules in front of me, but the sheild breaker round has to be allocated to the the bearer of the wargear that grants the save,

and the grimore doesnt help out its bearer at all, so even if it does "grant" the new save, it doesnt matter, as the wargear bearer doesnt benifit from the save in the first place, so either way you cant really sheild breaker it.

The Shield-Breaker: "that model [the target] loses any invulnerable saves granted by items of wargear immediately, and for the rest of the battle."
Let's go with the PFG: a piece of wargear that grants an invuln bubble. If Vindi wounds a model inside the bubble, but that model is not the bearer of the PFG, can that model benefit from the PFG any longer? NO! (and not for the rest of the game, either.)
Even if you shoot the model holding the PFG, it is only that model that can no longer use the PFG++ save. Any models still in the radius would benefit from the PFG.
This is to say that you DON'T have to allocate to the model with the wargear; and even if you DO, it won't strip any other models of bubble-saves or the current save. If a save expires and needs to be renewed, that's a different story.

Interestingly, If Vindi hits a TH/SS Termie, then he loses his 3++ AND his 5++.

SoB AS would keep their 6++, but not many would survive the wound in the first place...