Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I know that if I have an independent character with the scout special rule then the unit he is deployed attached to is allowed to make a scout move. If this unit with the IC start deployed in the unit's dedicated transport, can the DT then make a Scout move?

For example, join a Raven Guard Chaplain with the scout rule from chapter tactics to a unit of Terminators in a DT Landraider. Then could the Landraider make a scout move?

Aren't 'bulky' units unable to benefit from the RG Chapter tactics?

Dra'al Nacht wrote:
Aren't 'bulky' units unable to benefit from the RG Chapter tactics?

The IC would have the Scout rule, unless it is in TDA as well,

however not sure if the DT would get it since it is not the DT to the IC

edit: after reading the Scout, Deployment and IC rules, the IC counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes and is able to deploy within the DT as a member of the unit, so yes the LR can Scout if the IC has Scout and is joined to the unit

Tunafinch wrote:
I know that if I have an independent character with the scout special rule then the unit he is deployed attached to is allowed to make a scout move. If this unit with the IC start deployed in the unit's dedicated transport, can the DT then make a Scout move?

For example, join a Raven Guard Chaplain with the scout rule from chapter tactics to a unit of Terminators in a DT Landraider. Then could the Landraider make a scout move?

The IC will give scout to unit it he attached to, and that unit will give scout to the dedicated transport.

In your example, all the models will technically have the scout special rule, but the Raven Guard chapter tactics will prohibit the Terminators from benefiting from it. Its a distinction with out a difference at the moment but it could be important later.

40k-noob wrote:
edit: after reading the Scout, Deployment and IC rules, the IC counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes and is able to deploy within the DT as a member of the unit, so yes the LR can Scout if the IC has Scout and is joined to the unit

Unless any member of that unit is bulky, which in this example the terminators are. So the unit cannot benefit, and won't be able to redeploy. Neither will the transport.

As above. "cannot Benefit" is a strong prohibition - the dedicated transport cannot gain scout, as that would be the embarked unit benefitting from the rule they are not allowed to benefit from.

 grendel083 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
edit: after reading the Scout, Deployment and IC rules, the IC counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes and is able to deploy within the DT as a member of the unit, so yes the LR can Scout if the IC has Scout and is joined to the unit

Unless any member of that unit is bulky, which in this example the terminators are. So the unit cannot benefit, and won't be able to redeploy. Neither will the transport.

So what does that mean "benefit from either rule." exactly ?

Does it mean they do not have Chapter Tactics and thus do not get the rules at all?
Or does it mean they do get the Scout/Stealth USR but cannot redeploy/outflank and do not +1 Cover Save?






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DJGietzen wrote:

Tunafinch wrote:
I know that if I have an independent character with the scout special rule then the unit he is deployed attached to is allowed to make a scout move. If this unit with the IC start deployed in the unit's dedicated transport, can the DT then make a Scout move?

For example, join a Raven Guard Chaplain with the scout rule from chapter tactics to a unit of Terminators in a DT Landraider. Then could the Landraider make a scout move?

The IC will give scout to unit it he attached to, and that unit will give scout to the dedicated transport.

In your example, all the models will technically have the scout special rule, but the Raven Guard chapter tactics will prohibit the Terminators from benefiting from it. Its a distinction with out a difference at the moment but it could be important later.

That is why I ask my question above.

If they get the Scout USR but cannot "benefit" from it, well that does not stop the DT from "benefiting" from the Scout rule as it is a separate unit from the Termies.

It's part of the Chapter Tacktics rule.
It's not a straight granting of the scout rule.
If there's a bulky model in the unit, then they get no benefit from Scout.
Transferring the effect to a transport would be benefitting.

Furthermore if Bulky units never benefit from either rule ever then Terminators would not gain stealth from night fight... Which seems strange.

 grendel083 wrote:
It's part of the Chapter Tacktics rule.
It's not a straight granting of the scout rule.
If there's a bulky model in the unit, then they get no benefit from Scout.
Transferring the effect to a transport would be benefitting.

No that isnt the Termies benefiting that is the DT benefiting.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tunafinch wrote:
Furthermore if Bulky units never benefit from either rule ever then Terminators would not gain stealth from night fight... Which seems strange.

good ol' GW rules writing. Gotta love it!

40k-noob wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
It's part of the Chapter Tacktics rule.
It's not a straight granting of the scout rule.
If there's a bulky model in the unit, then they get no benefit from Scout.
Transferring the effect to a transport would be benefitting.

No that isnt the Termies benefiting that is the DT benefiting.

The unit must confer the rule to the transport. That would be a benefit. See the second to last paragraph of Scout.

 grendel083 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
It's part of the Chapter Tacktics rule.
It's not a straight granting of the scout rule.
If there's a bulky model in the unit, then they get no benefit from Scout.
Transferring the effect to a transport would be benefitting.

No that isnt the Termies benefiting that is the DT benefiting.

The unit must confer the rule to the transport. That would be a benefit. See the second to last paragraph of Scout.

I have read it. I do not consider it a benefit to the unit with Scout, I consider it a benefit to the DT.

 grendel083 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
It's part of the Chapter Tacktics rule.
It's not a straight granting of the scout rule.
If there's a bulky model in the unit, then they get no benefit from Scout.
Transferring the effect to a transport would be benefitting.

No that isnt the Termies benefiting that is the DT benefiting.

The unit must confer the rule to the transport. That would be a benefit. See the second to last paragraph of Scout.

They are different units. What you are saying would mean that no other unit in the army could scout, as that could be construed as benefitting the terminators. If you scout a rhino in front if the terminators to block Los then The terminators just benefitted from scout.

40k-noob wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
It's part of the Chapter Tacktics rule.
It's not a straight granting of the scout rule.
If there's a bulky model in the unit, then they get no benefit from Scout.
Transferring the effect to a transport would be benefitting.

No that isnt the Termies benefiting that is the DT benefiting.

The unit must confer the rule to the transport. That would be a benefit. See the second to last paragraph of Scout.

I have read it. I do not consider it a benefit to the unit with Scout, I consider it a benefit to the DT.

"If a unit with this special rule is deployed inside a Dedicated Transport, the confers the scout rule to the Transport"
It isn't the transport benefitting, the unit must confer the rule.
How can the unit confer the rule if it can't benefit from the rule?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tunafinch wrote:
They are different units. What you are saying would mean that no other unit in the army could scout, as that could be construed as benefitting the terminators. If you scout a rhino in front if the terminators to block Los then The terminators just benefitted from scout.

You could argue that. Not successfully, but you could argue it.

 grendel083 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
It's part of the Chapter Tacktics rule.
It's not a straight granting of the scout rule.
If there's a bulky model in the unit, then they get no benefit from Scout.
Transferring the effect to a transport would be benefitting.

No that isnt the Termies benefiting that is the DT benefiting.

The unit must confer the rule to the transport. That would be a benefit. See the second to last paragraph of Scout.

I have read it. I do not consider it a benefit to the unit with Scout, I consider it a benefit to the DT.

"If a unit with this special rule is deployed inside a Dedicated Transport, the confers the scout rule to the Transport"
It isn't the transport benefitting, the unit must confer the rule.
How can the unit confer the rule if it can't benefit from the rule?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tunafinch wrote:
They are different units. What you are saying would mean that no other unit in the army could scout, as that could be construed as benefitting the terminators. If you scout a rhino in front if the terminators to block Los then The terminators just benefitted from scout.

You could argue that. Not successfully, but you could argue it.

Because passing something on is not a benefit to me as i understand it.

edit: By the way, Just noticed your location, is that THE Isle of Man, as in the Isle of Man TT?

40k-noob wrote:
Because passing something on is not a benefit to me as i understand it.

You're making use of the rule. How is that not a benefit?

edit: By the way, Just noticed your location, is that THE Isle of Man, as in the Isle of Man TT?

Yes it is. Small country, beautiful scenery and lots of bikes

"If a unit with this special rule is deployed inside a Dedicated Transport, the confers the scout rule to the Transport"

The IC is "a unit with this special rule deployed inside a dedicated transport." He is conferring it to the transport.. Not the unit he joined. You are being way too generous to the word "benefit".

Tunafinch wrote:
"If a unit with this special rule is deployed inside a Dedicated Transport, the confers the scout rule to the Transport"

The IC is "a unit with this special rule deployed inside a dedicated transport." He is conferring it to the transport.. Not the unit he joined. You are being way too generous to the word "benefit".

The IC is part of the unit for ALL rules purposes (see the Independent Character rule).
If this unit contains bulky models, then as per the Chapter Tactics rule, the unit (and attached IC) cannot benefit.

Since no one inside the transport can benefit from the rule, no one can confer it.

So the dedicated transport can't have stealth either?

Edit: as I understand it your argument is that the terminators are benefitting for scout if their DT scouts. Therefore they would also be benefiting from stealth if their DT USC stealth.

Tunafinch wrote:
So the dedicated transport can't have stealth either?

Vehicles don't have the Chapter Tactics rule. So no, they can't get Stealth.

 grendel083 wrote:

Tunafinch wrote:
So the dedicated transport can't have stealth either?

Vehicles don't have the Chapter Tactics rule. So no, they can't get Stealth.

Night fight gives them stealth

Tunafinch wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

Tunafinch wrote:
So the dedicated transport can't have stealth either?

Vehicles don't have the Chapter Tactics rule. So no, they can't get Stealth.

Night fight gives them stealth

Of course.
I should have been more obvious, the transport doesn't have the Chapter Tactics rule therefore cannot get Stealth from Chapter Tactics. It's not a rule that can be conferred from a unit inside.
Other, completely unrelated sources, like Night Fighting are fine.

 grendel083 wrote:

Tunafinch wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

Tunafinch wrote:
So the dedicated transport can't have stealth either?

Vehicles don't have the Chapter Tactics rule. So no, they can't get Stealth.

Night fight gives them stealth

Of course.
I should have been more obvious, the transport doesn't have the Chapter Tactics rule therefore cannot get Stealth from Chapter Tactics. It's not a rule that can be conferred from a unit inside.
Other, completely unrelated sources, like Night Fighting are fine.

This is completely arbitrary. According to you They only "benefit" from scout when "conferring" it to their DT. So if their DT Already had scout they could benefit from scout. So you are defining benefit as "conferring".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If I were to join Shadowsun to a squad of Terminators then would they get stealth? Or are you drawing a line in the sand and saying they only cannot benefit if the origin of stealth is for a model with the chapter tactics special rule?

Tunafinch wrote:
This is completely arbitrary. According to you They only "benefit" from scout when "conferring" it to their DT. So if their DT Already had scout they could benefit from scout. So you are defining benefit as "conferring".

I'm defining benefit as "Advantage or profit gained from something". If a unit makes use of the rule to their advantage, they are benefitting from that rule. Conferring the rule to their transport is a benefit. Something that isn't allowed as the unit contains bulky models.

If I were to join Shadowsun to a squad of Terminators then would they get stealth? Or are you drawing a line in the sand and saying they only cannot benefit if the origin of stealth is for a model with the chapter tactics special rule?

A strict RAW answer? Looks like the Terminators can't benefit from Stealth, no matter what the source. A RAI and HIWPI answer, Stealth from sources other that Chapter Tactics are fine.