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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Hey guys! I'm a daemons player and I want to play something different/shooty. Eldar caught my eye.

What are the viable builds that arent knight or serpent spam?

Are wraith lists strong without the supplement?
   
Made in fi
Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine





To be honest, the most effective ways are:
1) Spam Serpents
2) Spam Wraiths
3) Spam Bikes.

I believe there is a way of playing Eldar without spamming.
I just haven't found it yet...

I like to play DA-list with a small group of Wraiths and HS from War Walkers. Everyones so obsessed with Serpents, that most of the people seem to have forgotten that other Eldar tanks are also great. Find an unit you like (Elites, FA, HS) and build your troops around it.

4000p
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Made in gb
Brainy Zoanthrope





Eldar have a lot of effective lists, some slightly better than others if you want to get into the tournament scene (which is it's own weird little small elite army meta).

There are very few units in the dex that are flat out bad. In direct opposition to Mafia I find the best way to be to choose what army core you want to play and work from there.

Guardians
Dire Avengers
Wraithguard
Any of the above but with Wave Serpents
Jetbikes
Pathfinders (though I'm not a fan of them being the core trooper, a squad in support is fine but they don't bring enough "oompf" to be the heart for me)

Then you can fill in the rest of the army around what support each different core requires. The new Eldar dex is pretty solid and it's hard to go wrong with, I personally have issues with how unreliable Warlocks are and the short range of Guardians because I'm an Ulthwe player but all in all it's a really good dex.

Like that post?
Try: http://40kwyrmtalk.blogspot.co.uk/
It's more of the same. 
   
Made in us
Deadly Dire Avenger




Colorado Springs

If you don't like to spam, and I don't recommend it except at tourney levels, the trick will be to bring units that mesh well together. I would agree with Dunklezahn that finding a core unit will determine what other units you should take. Guardians do great behind an ADL with a warlock giving them shrouded. A flanking serpent with D-Scythe wraithguard can be absolutely terrifying if used correctly. Jetbikes are the greatest late game cap units, very durable, and also the cheapest troop in the dex.

Whatever you decide to work with, keep in mind some basic ideas.
-Dire Avengers are meant to be mobile but are not of commanding speed so your whole army should seem to be in flux with movement

-Jetbikes are great at drawing fire, and can cap late game objectives with an aggressive turbo-boost, keep them in reserve with units that can stand and deliver on the table

-I dont think there is anything a wraithguard/blade does poorly except move quickly - kit them out however you choose and watch the frustration on your opponent's face as they wade through bolter fire, but have something quicker to hammer enemy rear lines while their main units are distracted

-Pathfinders and guardians fill niche roles for each player and I have not found them to be much use personally but have seen them used to great effect in other games

Last little tidbit before people get annoyed - look into Hornets (IA:11 and most recent update) as they are a better war walker/vyper hybrid which got a really nice point reduction, don't overlook Shining Spears since they can fill the backfield devastators even with their lackluster reputation, and build in a little redundancy because nothing sucks harder than losing your only tank hunting units with a pair of land raiders breathing down your end of the table. That's what I've got, good luck and welcome to the craftworld.

"I have all the powers of Hell at my disposal. Who are you to question me?"

"You stand accused of violence against Iyanden. That your crime has not yet been committed is of no consequence. The sentence is oblivion."

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Made in ca
Deadly Dire Avenger




You definitly dont need to spam to have an effective eldar list. Spamming tends to be easier for your enemy to "read" your army and hard counter it if they need to with future lists.

If your not in a tourney scene and hopefully in a gaming group that does not bring the most hardcore tourney lists you will do fine with just about anything.

I would start with a couple serpents and 2 squads of either guardians or dire avengers(argument can be made for both but i prefer dires). You want to build the serpents with scatter lasers as this is by far the best loadout and you probably wont bother using any other one.
More on troops i would get a squad or 2 of 3 jetbikes more just for last min objective grabbing.

Next is the HQ, either a foot farseer or a autarch on bike(he is an amazing choice with the laser lance and mantle of laughing god) are good starters.

Then you will want to move on to support elements, our fast do very well here. I recommend picking up a couple boxes of warp spiders as they are amazing. If you know you will be playing alot of xenos i would recommend some hawks too. The other choices are not bad and can all be made to work well if used right but spiders and hawks will be a good starter unit.

Heavies you will definitly want to make use of with eldar as this is one of the only reliable sources of long range heavy firepower. Fire prism kits are great as they can be both them and the spinner which both have uses(i would magnitize). Wraithkight is a good unit and great for new to eldar players as he really dosnt take a whole load of experience with the army to use. Reapers are fun you just need to be carefull as they are not as durable as most other choices.

This brings us to the elites, i find this is the last thing i look at when building lists. Fire Dragons are great in serpents and can reliably kill any vehicle in the game if you get within 6 which isnt hard with battlefocus. We have alot of cc in this section and with a shooty edition and shooty army these are more an afterthought if you really love CC. If you go this route i would say scorpiens are the way to go they have a boatload of attacks and can go toe to toe with alot in the game just not crazy dedicated cc deathstars. Thier exarch alone will net you some good kills and is an amazing challanger with his at init power fist thats not specialist.

I hope this helps you in your starting. Yes serpents were my first recomendation but i really only would run 2 cause i am like you im not a fan of spammy lists. I own 4 Serpents but only 3 are painted and thats usually all i run in bigger games as i got plenty else to fill my points.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




How are wraith based lists? I think they look really nice.
   
Made in fi
Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine





Wraith-lists are good, because they have the durability that the Eldar infantry overall lacks. With spiritseer HQ you can make a reliable Wraithlist. 5 T6 3+ models can be difficult to remove from the objective.

My opinion is that for troops take either Wraithguard with D-Scythes or footslogging squad of Wraithaxes.
To fix the problem of short range you should rely on Wraithknight, altough I also like the Lord. Both can provide decent AT and work as a great supportive unit for your troops.

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Made in gb
Agile Revenant Titan






I nearly always run wraith lists. I am tinkering with finalising now, and have experimented with other aspect warriors and choices, but personally find nothing more fun than wraiths! It can be uber frustrating, especially for MEQ. They hate it.

If you are going to run a wraith list though, I would strongly recommend the Iyanden supplement! The ability to take multiple spirit seers is very tasty, especially as their primarus power is voice of twilight! Giving all your wraith units battle focus! You can take up to 5 per HQ slot, which means you can have another HQ if you really want. It also means you have a shed load more spirit marks to place!

I think one squad of guard with d-scythes in a serpent is a must since they can pretty much shift any objective holding cover saved unit in the game.

I also run a Farseer, love the powers he can give. He seems to sit nicely in a squad of axes - but this part is more just preference, a lot of wraith players don't bother with farseers.

As for HS, the wraith knight is awesome! But it is expensive in points and cost. I have one and love it, especially as a jump unit! But don't rule out lords, can be tailored to any specific role, and as a character can have precision hits!

Let me know how you get on...

You sought to cower behind your walls, weakling? Instead, by the will of Khorne, you shall die behind them  
   
Made in us
Agile Revenant Titan






Austin, Texas.

hmm since you dont want to spam, ill just tell you what units NOT to use.

from worst to worstest

striking scorpians
full squads of dire avengers in wave srepnts
vibro cannon
alot of the pheonix lords
howling banshees
dark reapers
FALCONS are absolute crap.

and there you go

I do drugs.
Mostly Plastic Crack, but I do dabble in Cardboard Cocaine. 
   
Made in us
Horrific Howling Banshee





Spam isn't the "most effective", its the easiest. If your opponent doesn't have a particularly diverse list, you run a better chance of just overwhelming them.

The Eldar are extraordinarily tactical. You have superior movement, but shorter range guns. I have found my games go best when I can separate my opponent into pieces, and lure them into killboxes. You have a lot of low AP options, so it's good at punching holes in Marine armor or elite lists.

The eldar don't do close combat and they don't do Deathstars as well. If you are used to a flying circus or screamerstar list, Eldar will play very differently. Bikes and Serpents are a good start, and there is very little 'bad' in the codex (possibly banshees, they got nerf batted pretty hard, possibly hemlocks due to casting restrictions), but there are a fair number of 'Hard' units.

My general strategy is "Every unit has a purpose. Anything that doesn't help that specific purpose is waste." The Eldar are specialists, not generalists, so be prepared for that.
   
Made in ca
Deadly Dire Avenger




 ninjafiredragon wrote:
hmm since you dont want to spam, ill just tell you what units NOT to use.

from worst to worstest

striking scorpians
full squads of dire avengers in wave srepnts
vibro cannon
alot of the pheonix lords
howling banshees
dark reapers
FALCONS are absolute crap.

and there you go


I dont really agree with this assesment,

Full squads of avengers in serpents are an amazing core to any list they would be nowhere neer the bottom list. Yes they are more expensive than guardians but since they are your troops i like the resiliancy to hold up to return fire after the jump out to shoot. This helps them still be around to score later in the game.

Vibro Cannons are actually really good, if guided you are pretty much getting 3 las cannon hits for 90 points on a super resiliant firing platform. Yes you have to factor in part of the farseer cost but hes going to be doing other stuff too.

Falcons are not absolute crap, they just unfortunatly are not as good as the serpents. I have seen bright lance falcons do great as they put out 3 S8 and 3 S6 shots per turn and can still transport 6 guys. My issue is they shouldve been dedicated transports (heres hoping for beil tan suppliment to do this). If you compare these to what other armies can get for simalar prices its not THAT bad.

I can agree with banshees and some of the phenox lords not because they are terrible but to make worth it you need to pull them off perfectly, Scorps also while a bit more forgiving are still hard to make work at times if you have a compitent enemy as they will know to keep away.

I dont know why reapers are on the list they are amazing. Yes they are glass cannons like most eldar stuff is but cannons they are... Ive seen a squad of 5 wipe marine squad or cripple one per turn for multiple turns in a row from 48" range in some games. If you stick a farseer with them and can get ignore cover then you are laughing, that and guide combined makes them a killing machine. You just need to keep your enemy at 48" as most things the enemy has to fire at that range is anti tank so is mostly wasted on these guys.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




How many troops to bring with eldar for objective games? Is 3 too few?

Farseer
Spiritseer

Wraithguard in Serpent
Wraithguard in Serpent
20x Guardians


Warp spiders

Nightspinner
Wraithknight

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/08 16:30:00


 
   
Made in us
Deadly Dire Avenger




Colorado Springs

Pdogg614 wrote:
 ninjafiredragon wrote:
hmm since you dont want to spam, ill just tell you what units NOT to use.

from worst to worstest

striking scorpians
full squads of dire avengers in wave srepnts
vibro cannon
alot of the pheonix lords
howling banshees
dark reapers
FALCONS are absolute crap.

and there you go


I dont really agree with this assesment,

Full squads of avengers in serpents are an amazing core to any list they would be nowhere neer the bottom list. Yes they are more expensive than guardians but since they are your troops i like the resiliancy to hold up to return fire after the jump out to shoot. This helps them still be around to score later in the game.

Vibro Cannons are actually really good, if guided you are pretty much getting 3 las cannon hits for 90 points on a super resiliant firing platform. Yes you have to factor in part of the farseer cost but hes going to be doing other stuff too.

Falcons are not absolute crap, they just unfortunatly are not as good as the serpents. I have seen bright lance falcons do great as they put out 3 S8 and 3 S6 shots per turn and can still transport 6 guys. My issue is they shouldve been dedicated transports (heres hoping for beil tan suppliment to do this). If you compare these to what other armies can get for simalar prices its not THAT bad.

I can agree with banshees and some of the phenox lords not because they are terrible but to make worth it you need to pull them off perfectly, Scorps also while a bit more forgiving are still hard to make work at times if you have a compitent enemy as they will know to keep away.

I dont know why reapers are on the list they are amazing. Yes they are glass cannons like most eldar stuff is but cannons they are... Ive seen a squad of 5 wipe marine squad or cripple one per turn for multiple turns in a row from 48" range in some games. If you stick a farseer with them and can get ignore cover then you are laughing, that and guide combined makes them a killing machine. You just need to keep your enemy at 48" as most things the enemy has to fire at that range is anti tank so is mostly wasted on these guys.


True, he is maybe being a little harsh on some of the units but at the same time what he is saying isn't wrong. Dark Reapers while great if used properly, are not as good as a fire prism or a war walker squad and these are the things it has to compete against in the Heavy Support section. The same goes for the Falcon, it is situationally good but out classed by the Wave Serpent as a transport and by Fire Prisms, Wraithknights, and D-Cannon/Shadow Weaver artillery in firepower. It sucks because I have several Falcons and multiple Dark Reaper squads that won't see the table because I'm already trying to decide between Wraithlords and War Walkers. Phoenix Lords are amazing if put into the right situation but the generic Eldar HQs and even the Avatar are hard not to choose if only because they all have an invul save where most, if not all (I don't have the codex with me atm) of the Phoenix Lords do not. I love Kharandras but he isn't durable enough for most situations. Vibro cannons used to be awesome, and now are meh. With the change in the way that it works (it gets one shot instead of drawing a line) if lost a lot of what made it a desirable choice especially against the shadow weaver which got a big buff.

To get back to the original question, Wraithlords are still incredible even with a few nerfing tweaks so with a wraith list toss in a lord and a knight for a pair of hard to kill units that demand attention. Yes, you would be using them as bullet soaks but every heavy weapon fired at them instead of at transports is a good thing. The first time you tell your opponent that the 4 to wound his plasma cannon rolled doesn't wound is a great feeling. Take Wraithblades on foot to run up the middle and a pair of serpents with Wraithguard with either d-scythes for objective clearing or cannons for tank hunting for a true wraith list. At the same time, I recommend not monobuilding wraith. Use some Windriders for objectives, some Fire Dragons for tank killing, or even Howling Banshees (they get a terrible rep but those masks can be brutal against nids or DE, and those swords rip apart anything that isn't a TEQ). Some versatility in your lists keeps the opponent guessing what your strategy is because at that point you are able to react to his strategy instead of worrying if he is going to mess up yours.

"I have all the powers of Hell at my disposal. Who are you to question me?"

"You stand accused of violence against Iyanden. That your crime has not yet been committed is of no consequence. The sentence is oblivion."

14k 12/4/1 6th
3k 4/1/2
2.5k 9/2/0
 
   
Made in ca
Deadly Dire Avenger




The vibros have changed roles now though. The old vibro rules gave us more S6 hits, we dont need any more of that. I like thier new anti tank/heavy infantry role. The pinning checks also are very under rated and the only way to hurt marines with leadership as morale failing is nothing to them.

Alot of eldar lists dont have enough anti tank and for just 90 points i think they give you something good but i think they need to be guided to really shine as you want all 3 to hit. 2 hits is ok too if your just shooting at meq or light vehicles.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/08 17:28:58


 
   
 
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