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Can you charge a character that is already engaged in a challenge?

Example: A lone Wraithlord is in a challenge with an Archon, the controller of the Archon wants to charge the Wraithlord with a squad of Wyches, can he do it?

What if the unit charging contained another character?


It doesn't make sense that they could as only the Archon and Wraithlord are considered in BtB contact, but how would Heroic intervention work if not allowed? Or is Heroic intervention only allowed in squad combats?

I could be misremembering, but it should be legal. The whole in base to base with only each other thing is only the fight sub-phase.

The Wyches could charge, but could not attack the Wraithlord unless the Archon was removed as a casualty. If there were a character in the unit, they could do a heroic intervention.

I can't find anything that says you cannot charge a 1 on 1 challenge battle so this is how I interpret such a scenario.

The new unit of wyches could charge yet wouldn't be attacking; however, would qualify for the Moral Support rerolls for the challenge since it's based on models and not within the unit.

They are not considered part of the same unit and if they are not considered to be in base to base could opt to consolidate after the round of combat. This could be used to gain additional movement similar to how some people use Hit and Run on Hellions.

Like c0j1r0 mentioned though - should the Archon fall to the Wraithlord, the wyches would become stuck in combat at that point.

This is how I interpret the rules though and I may be missing something.

UPDATE: After rereading p28, my suggestion of an outright consolidation move is incorrect. Please ignore such.

How are you completing the charge if you're never allowed to be base to base with the character?

And Unholyllama - how would you be able to consolidate? You've entered a combat and an enemy unit is still alive.

rigeld2 wrote:
How are you completing the charge if you're never allowed to be base to base with the character?

And Unholyllama - how would you be able to consolidate? You've entered a combat and an enemy unit is still alive.

The challenge rules only state that you move the 2 combatants into base to base...it does not say you remove them from the base to base of other models. (page 64 BRB).

As for the consolidation, technically a wych would still be in base to base (from the charge); however, in a multi-assault, any unit that is not within base to base with an enemy model (after post-assault pile in) they can make a consolidation move instead (2nd column, top paragraph, p28 BRB). In this instance, I was incorrect in my mention of doing a consolidation move outright.

 Unholyllama wrote:
The challenge rules only state that you move the 2 combatants into base to base...it does not say you remove them from the base to base of other models. (page 64 BRB).

p64 wrote:For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact only with each other.

If you're making base contact with your charge you're breaking that rule because the character will be in base contact with something other than his opponent in the challenge.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Unholyllama wrote:
The challenge rules only state that you move the 2 combatants into base to base...it does not say you remove them from the base to base of other models. (page 64 BRB).

p64 wrote:For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact only with each other.

If you're making base contact with your charge you're breaking that rule because the character will be in base contact with something other than his opponent in the challenge.

*rereads the entire paragraph this time*

I stand corrected - based on that I would have to change and say that you cannot charge into a 1 on 1 battle between characters in a challenge.

But then what happens when you have the following:
Units A and B squads charge an IC.
Challenge is issued from Unit A.
Unit A has a member in b2b contact with the IC, the Unit B does not.
Is Unit B still locked in combat?

 Happyjew wrote:
But then what happens when you have the following:
Units A and B squads charge an IC.
Challenge is issued from Unit A.
Unit A has a member in b2b contact with the IC, the Unit B does not.
Is Unit B still locked in combat?

Yes, they are still in the combat by virtue of having charged in. (and making BTB on the charge)

Fragile wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
But then what happens when you have the following:
Units A and B squads charge an IC.
Challenge is issued from Unit A.
Unit A has a member in b2b contact with the IC, the Unit B does not.
Is Unit B still locked in combat?

Yes, they are still in the combat by virtue of having charged in. (and making BTB on the charge)

How? You are locked in combat when one model is in base contact. Unit B has no models in base contact (after the challenge is issued). Therefore, they cannot be locked in combat.

Away from my books right now but I'll look and edit when I get home.

The closest thing in the BRB FAQ is:

Q: Two of my units are involved in a multiple combat against an
enemy unit that has been reduced to a single character. If that
character is currently fighting in a challenge with a character
from one of my two units, is it possible for my unengaged unit to
consolidate and leave the combat? (p27)
A: No, though they do count for Moral Support re-rolls.

However that deals with a unit reduced to just the character.

It's a similar situation though. The second unit isn't involved in the combat whatsoever, but they aren't permitted to leave combat.

 Happyjew wrote:
The closest thing in the BRB FAQ is:

Q: Two of my units are involved in a multiple combat against an
enemy unit that has been reduced to a single character. If that
character is currently fighting in a challenge with a character
from one of my two units, is it possible for my unengaged unit to
consolidate and leave the combat? (p27)
A: No, though they do count for Moral Support re-rolls.

However that deals with a unit reduced to just the character.

Which is effectively the same as just charging a solo character with two units. (It would probably be dumb to accept such a challenge if your the two unit player).

The second paragraph of moral support pretty much covers this along with the FAQ you quoted.

 Happyjew wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
But then what happens when you have the following:
Units A and B squads charge an IC.
Challenge is issued from Unit A.
Unit A has a member in b2b contact with the IC, the Unit B does not.
Is Unit B still locked in combat?

Yes, they are still in the combat by virtue of having charged in. (and making BTB on the charge)

How? You are locked in combat when one model is in base contact. Unit B has no models in base contact (after the challenge is issued). Therefore, they cannot be locked in combat.

2 units charge 1 IC.
All Charge moves happen prior to fight sub-phase
Challenge occurs.
1 round of CC gives moral support for both unit's models.
At the end of combat (presuming challenge is still going on) Unit B cannot be in base to base after pile in moves because of rules of the challenge and thus are allowed to make a consolidation move. Unit A is still locked because of its character locked in combat. This can be found in BRB p28 above the image.

 Unholyllama wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
But then what happens when you have the following:
Units A and B squads charge an IC.
Challenge is issued from Unit A.
Unit A has a member in b2b contact with the IC, the Unit B does not.
Is Unit B still locked in combat?

Yes, they are still in the combat by virtue of having charged in. (and making BTB on the charge)

How? You are locked in combat when one model is in base contact. Unit B has no models in base contact (after the challenge is issued). Therefore, they cannot be locked in combat.

2 units charge 1 IC.
All Charge moves happen prior to fight sub-phase
Challenge occurs.
1 round of CC gives moral support for both unit's models.
At the end of combat (presuming challenge is still going on) Unit B cannot be in base to base after pile in moves because of rules of the challenge and thus are allowed to make a consolidation move. Unit A is still locked because of its character locked in combat. This can be found in BRB p28 above the image.

While that would make sense, that FAQ shoots that in the foot.

While the challenge models are in btb they are not exclusively in btb. The charge is perfectly legal knowing this. It only when it comes to wound allocation where the challenge models are afforded exclusion from the rest of the combat.

 Bausk wrote:
While the challenge models are in btb they are not exclusively in btb. The charge is perfectly legal knowing this. It only when it comes to wound allocation where the challenge models are afforded exclusion from the rest of the combat.

That's not true. The relevant rules have been quoted.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Bausk wrote:
While the challenge models are in btb they are not exclusively in btb. The charge is perfectly legal knowing this. It only when it comes to wound allocation where the challenge models are afforded exclusion from the rest of the combat.

That's not true. The relevant rules have been quoted.

I disagree there. The rules state they are considered to be in B2B with only each other, the very word considered suggests more than just the challengee's can be in B2B. The restriction there is for the purpose of the assualt, they can only consider each other for hit allocation.

[edit] for example, If a 3rd unit charged a lone challenge, it would not stop or interupt the fact the challengee's are still considered to be in B2B with only each other.

They used "considered to be" as opposed to "count as" - now we know "count as" must be "is", but "considered to be" is a significantly less specific / strong phrase.

 Nem wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Bausk wrote:
While the challenge models are in btb they are not exclusively in btb. The charge is perfectly legal knowing this. It only when it comes to wound allocation where the challenge models are afforded exclusion from the rest of the combat.

That's not true. The relevant rules have been quoted.

I disagree there. The rules state they are considered to be in B2B with only each other, the very word considered suggests more than just the challengee's can be in B2B. The restriction there is for the purpose of the assualt, they can only consider each other for hit allocation.

[edit] for example, If a 3rd unit charged a lone challenge, it would not stop or interupt the fact the challengee's are still considered to be in B2B with only each other.

If you complete the charge, you have gotten into B2B with one of the characters.
How does this not break the rule that says they're considered to be B2B only with each other?

considered is not equal to must.

if you are considered to be something that is not the same as it is the only thing that can be

they can have their base completely surrounded but as far as striking blows and attacking ect is concerned they only 'see' each other as they are considered in base to base with each other.

the charge rules do not care about being 'considered' all that matters is that you 'do' make B2B contact. if you can do that then you satisfy the charge rule and can complete the charge. whn it comes to striking blows you check to see if you can, in this example the unit cannot strike blows as the character is in a challenge that specificaly states that attacks cannot be allocated to it. as such the moral suport rule kicks in for the re-rolls.

Rigeld - so no other models can be in base? Even if they actually are in base?

COnsidered to be is not the same as "count as" or "is"

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Rigeld - so no other models can be in base? Even if they actually are in base?

Correct. Because if you they are and you consider them to be, you've broken a rule. You must consider them not to be.

COnsidered to be is not the same as "count as" or "is"

I'm not sure why you make this distinction.

 Happyjew wrote:
But then what happens when you have the following:
Units A and B squads charge an IC.
Challenge is issued from Unit A.
Unit A has a member in b2b contact with the IC, the Unit B does not.
Is Unit B still locked in combat?

If they charged a unit consisting of only an IC, and Unit B does not get into base contact, than unit B failed its charge (or am I misunderstanding you?).

They did when they made the charge. Because of the challenge B no longer has a model in B2B. Unfortunately that doesn't help according to the FAQ.

Banbaji wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
But then what happens when you have the following:
Units A and B squads charge an IC.
Challenge is issued from Unit A.
Unit A has a member in b2b contact with the IC, the Unit B does not.
Is Unit B still locked in combat?

If they charged a unit consisting of only an IC, and Unit B does not get into base contact, than unit B failed its charge (or am I misunderstanding you?).

You are misunderstanding me.

Unit A (Sarge and single Tac Marine) and Unit B (2 Tac Marines) charge an big, scary, character-type MC (such as a Tervigon). Both make it into base contact. The sarge issues a challenge, the Tervigon must accept.
Unit A is clearly locked in combat as the Sarge is b2b with the Tervigon. Unit B is not in b2b contact. Is Unit B still locked in combat?

 Happyjew wrote:
Is Unit B still locked in combat?

The FAQ you quoted says no.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Is Unit B still locked in combat?

The FAQ you quoted says no.

Actually the FAQ I quoted says if the unit is reduced to just the character, Unit B would still be locked in combat.