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Bit miffed on this one having only just started actually playing the game again.

If I have a character in a squad of troops and the character has a higher toughness, If the squad was engaged in assault and the character was not in a challenge, although he still could have extra wounds and a different save, if he is in theory the next model in line to be hit/allocated a wound, does he suffer these at the squads potentially lower toughness? From what I've read in the rules this seems to be the case. How does this also work if in the unit he is in takes shooting wounds? I can understand the need to do this to increase the speed of a game, but it also means a naturally tougher character could be killed a lot more easily which doesn't seem right.

thanks

The opposite is also true. If the unit he jpins has a higher toughness he would benefit from the units higher toughness as well. But in either case his toughness is used for things like toughness tests anf determining if double strength instant death applys.


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Also it should be notes that he can use los to acoid the wound altogether so it makea sense fot the majority toughness to be used. wound allocation works the same way in shoting and assault.

Issue a challenge next time?

That isn't really helpful Inquisitor_Dunn.

As far as I know Bausk has it correct; while it is done for simplicity in the rules the outcome isn't always a disadvantage. There is a lot of time where I have put low toughness characters within a unit that had high toughness models, increasing their survivability. Not even just a slight increase in toughness either, but effectively doubling the toughness of a character and ensuring a 2+ wound becomes 5 or 6! Though, to be honest, in those situations I didn't use the character as a shield wall however it is a good tactic if the character's armor save and wound count is better then the high toughness models.

Like wise, there is look out sir! rules that can help you protect a more squishy character that just happens to end up next in the firing line.

I love using a unit consisting of The Swarmlord, a Prime, and a Tyrant Guard. Prime (with Regen) soaking wounds on T7+ and regenning what gets through. Rawr.

Sometimes taking the lower toughness can be better if it means more bullet shields. especially if you want tjem for a shield. for instance a chaos lord tucked in a 35 strong unit of cultists.

Thanks for all the replies guys. @Inquisitor_Dunn I was merely asking clarification/getting opinion on the rules, not asking for tactics.

I can understand the point about using other models as meat shields when it comes to ranged attacks, but I just feel that in close combat it doesn't necessarily make sense. I guess I see it playing out in my head, that 2 mighty heroes might be in opposing units and (rather than issue an outright challenge) they're almost "shrugging off" the attacks from the standard rank and file (due to being too tough) and slaughtering their way to each other. They just (un)fortunately have to cleave their way through rank and file first. Much like 2 primarchs almost killing each others bodyguard to reach the other

I guess the other way you could view it is that, they're almost overwhelmed and hence their "lower" toughness almost comes about from multiple small wounds adding up to a greater wound. But at the end of the day there's nothing to stop my and my friends doing it this way (just not in any official tournaments)

thanks

rigeld2 wrote:
I love using a unit consisting of The Swarmlord, a Prime, and a Tyrant Guard. Prime (with Regen) soaking wounds on T7+ and regenning what gets through. Rawr.

Wow, I'll admit that I've never seen that, but I like it a lot......

 Battlesong wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I love using a unit consisting of The Swarmlord, a Prime, and a Tyrant Guard. Prime (with Regen) soaking wounds on T7+ and regenning what gets through. Rawr.

Wow, I'll admit that I've never seen that, but I like it a lot......

He forgot to mention that SL has Iron Arm. It is a very nasty unit.

I did say T7+...

Yet a daemon prince with a black mace could rip it to bits...


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But yes. very beasty death star unit. :-)

 Bausk wrote:
Yet a daemon prince with a black mace could rip it to bits...

There is alot of assumption in that ... but yes there are many counters for any type of deathstar.

 Bausk wrote:
Yet a daemon prince with a black mace could rip it to bits...

I'm sorry, I must be missing something here, but how?

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 Bausk wrote:
Yet a daemon prince with a black mace could rip it to bits...

I'm sorry, I must be missing something here, but how?

out inits everything in the unit, wounds on a 2+ regardless, AP2, potentially massive amount of attacks, near max ws, each unsaved wound has a minor chance of removing a model from play so ew is useless if that happens and has a minor chance to cause wounds to any model close to the dp that didn't take a wound directly from it. it mainly hinges on the black maces special rules.

Yes but wouldn't this scenario be more likely:
1. Daemon Prince charges, challenges
2. Tyranid Prime accepts
3. Prime does a wound or 2 to Daemon Prince, Prince possibly dies to Bonesword, but probably doesnt.
4. Daemon Prince kills Prime, Swarmlord/Tyrant Guard possibly loses a wound to Black Mace but probably doesn't.
5. Tyranid players turn, Tyrant Guard's Lash Whip reduces Prince to initiative 1.
6. Swarmlord slaughters Daemon Prince.

Yeah, you'll take out the ~100 point Prime no problem, but your Prince is still dead, was it worth it?

What's the primes init? 8 or better? If not then it wouldn't get a hit in. and the significant point difference the chaos player could use cultists with to soak unwanted challenges and help manuvoure away from tue lashwhip. and still have points to spare.


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But that's enough of this offtopic rant. Lets take it to pm if you xwant to discuss it further.

 Bausk wrote:
What's the primes init? 8 or better? If not then it wouldn't get a hit in. and the significant point difference the chaos player could use cultists with to soak unwanted challenges and help manuvoure away from tue lashwhip. and still have points to spare.


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But that's enough of this offtopic rant. Lets take it to pm if you xwant to discuss it further.

The Primes lash whip drops you to init 1. There's two in the unit.
It's not unlikely for the Swarmlord to have Warp Speed - which would mean he'd out init the Prince (or at least tie on average).

But yes - a point sink prince is a very good counter to lots of units.

 Battlesong wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I love using a unit consisting of The Swarmlord, a Prime, and a Tyrant Guard. Prime (with Regen) soaking wounds on T7+ and regenning what gets through. Rawr.

Wow, I'll admit that I've never seen that, but I like it a lot......

yeah, Swarmstar is nasty... Even better with the TG having LW, and the Prime with LW/BS. you absolutely nuke everything except huge mobs.

Even better, after taking every option on the Prime, the total cost of the 'star is only like 470 (280, 65, 125). It's fairly normal for me to slough off well over double the wounds of the unit over the course of the game, and is absolutely hilarious if the Swarm manages to get Iron Arm going.

Back to the OP, sometimes it sucks having to use the majority toughness, others it is a huge advantage (as in the Swarmstar), but generally if you are having to use the lower toughness it is because you have an IC in the midst of a chunk of meat shields IME