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Chronus can be "taken as an upgrade for one Ultramarine Tank in the army."
Vehicles don't have Chapter Tactics, so an "Ultramarine Tank" doesn't really exist or make sense according to the rules.
What, then, are the requirements for Chronus to be taken? It would make sense if it said something like, "One tank in a detachment using Ultramarine CT may be upgraded to Chronus"...but it doesn't say that. How, then, are we to judge what an "Ultramarine" tank is, according to the Rules As Written?

When you give an answer, please quote explicit rules that support what you're saying.

"Chapter" is an attribute of the detachment, not the individual unit (first rules paragraph in the "chapter tactics" section). An "Ultramarines tank" is a vehicle with the "tank" type chosen as a part of an Ultramarines detachment. Whether or not a model has the Chapter Tactics rule only matters for determining whether it benefits from the chapter's special rules or not.

The first paragraph in the Chapter Tactics section, p77, is very fluffy. I couldn't find what you were referencing.

The SECOND paragraph says, "All models benefit from the appropriate Chapter Tactics for their detachment's Chapter, providing they have the Chapter Tactics special rule." Vehicles don't have the rule.
It then says, "Certain units and special characters have specific Chapter Tactics and can only be taken in detachments of the specified Chapter."
Disembarked Chronus has CT:Ultra. But without Chapter tactics, we don't know what isn't an Ultramarine tank, because nothing defines what IS an Ultramarine tank.

I definitely see what is intended with Chronus's rule. But I don't see a specific rule that defines an Ultramarine tank, since all tanks from the SM codex are, rules-wise, identical.

It is the first and second sentence of that paragraph that you want to look at.

The detachment is a (Chapter) Detachment; where the "(Chapter)" is the chapter you choose when building your FOC for that detachment.

In a list with Allied Ultramarines(Primary) and Iron Hands(allied); then all the Transports, Land Raiders, Predators, etc in the primary list are Ultramarines Tanks.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
The first paragraph in the Chapter Tactics section, p77, is very fluffy. I couldn't find what you were referencing.

I edited that to clarify I'm talking about the first rules paragraph, not the bit of intro fluff. It's the second paragraph if you count all text on the page.

The SECOND paragraph says, "All models benefit from the appropriate Chapter Tactics for their detachment's Chapter, providing they have the Chapter Tactics special rule." Vehicles don't have the rule.

I'm talking about the beginning of the paragraph where it says that you pick a chapter for your detachment. That sentence you just quoted tells you what happens once you have made that decision, specifically how certain units gain additional rules depending on what chapter you picked.

But I don't see a specific rule that defines an Ultramarine tank, since all tanks from the SM codex are, rules-wise, identical.

They aren't identical at all. An Ultramarines tank is a tank chosen as part of an Ultramarines detachment. Even if it doesn't benefit from any of the chapter-specific rules it is still an Ultramarines tank.

Why does it have to come to chapter tactics? It's a simple clear restriction that he can't be in any vehicle that isn't an Ultramarine vehicle. No needing to argue chapter tactics or semantics of a paragraph. If it's not an Ultramarine vehicle then he cannot be assigned to it, simple.

Right - now what's an Uktramarine vehicle?

rigeld2 wrote:
Right - now what's an Uktramarine vehicle?

seriously? The obvious answer is a vehicle taken in an Ultramarine detachment. Much like Pask and IG vehicles, you wouldn't attempt to use him outside of his detachment.

What is the purpose of your argument, rigeld?

I don't think it was his, it was mine. (Although I do appreciate his support)

The purpose is to see whether this potential loophole/problem needs a FAQ in order for it to be clearer.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

The purpose is to see whether this potential loophole/problem needs a FAQ in order for it to be clearer.

It obviously doesn't:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
I definitely see what is intended with Chronus's rule

Think of it this way:
Technically as a tank doesnt have the CT special rule yes by the way you are trying to see it you can mount him in any detachment with any CT.

However in the event he bails out. He becomes a smurf and if your CT isn't smurfs you are with immediate effect fielding an illegal army. Automatic loss at maximum possible points.

But how to define a tanks ownership is simple.

How do you define who owns a model on the board. Use the same logic which CT does your detachment use... That would be the owner of the tank... Aka smurfs = smurfs tank for that detachment.... Fists = fists tank

Simple plain logic

RAW by your logic no Space Marine player would ever be able to use a vehicle as vehicles don't have Chapter Tactics.

On that note, I don't see the point of these RAW arguments, the intended use of the rule is clear and even if you could make some argument that Chronus is not indeed an Ultramarine once he is deployed it's doubtful a TO would rule in your favor and make the opponent lose the match or get banned.

Point stands raw is clear he is a smurf and can only be fielded in asmurf detachment people need to forget intended it means absolute squat at real tournaments that play the gsme the way the game is writen. You have writen set of rules for a reason


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And a true non bissed ref would force a auto loss n bannin due to intentional rule breaking

I'm only seeing two options here.

First: Ultramarine tank being a tank in a Space Marine detachment with the Ultramarine Chapter Tactic. Bit of an RAI interpretation, but the most obvious.

Second: Going off RAW there are no vehicles defined as an Ultramarine tank. As it's a requirement, Chronus can never be purchased for any tank.

Using Chronus in a non Ultramarine detachment doesn't fit either.

The rules are pretty clear on this; you choose the chapter tactics for the detachment, having the chapter tactics rule or not does not effect the unit being of that chapter, it just determines whether you benefit from the tactics rule.

Bausk wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Right - now what's an Uktramarine vehicle?

seriously? The obvious answer is a vehicle taken in an Ultramarine detachment. Much like Pask and IG vehicles, you wouldn't attempt to use him outside of his detachment.

Where is that defined? As far as I can tell that's a (perfectly valid) assumption with no rules support.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:What is the purpose of your argument, rigeld?

The thread asked for a RAW interpretation. That's what I'm giving. You know, one that uses actual rules instead of assumptions or attempting to divine intent.

It would be nice if the rules on page 77 formally said "All units in this detachment belong to this chapter" I think it's RAI, but could see where someone who wanted to nitpick the wording could find a gap. The fact they they go from declaring the chapter, to talking about chapter tactics, without referencing the non-CT units in the detachment is a little grey, RAW wise. I do think the intent of the first few lines of page 77 are quite clear though.

If someone had Preferred Enemy/hatred (Ultramarines) would you give them it's bonuses vs. vehicles in the army? It's painted blue, had a big "U" on the side? It's a Tank, in an Ultramarine's detachment. That clearly makes it an Ultramarine Tank.

Although in light of this argument, I thought about how the Legion of the Damned are categorized. They are part of the detachment, but don't benefit from the CT rules. It would be nice if their "Aid unlooked for" rule included a note that they are not considered members of their detachment's chapter. If not, they get tarred by the same brush as the rest of their army.

rigeld2 wrote:
Where is that defined? As far as I can tell that's a (perfectly valid) assumption with no rules support.

Page 77:

"When choosing a Space Marines detachment, whether primary or allied, choose one of the Chapters listed in this section."

"Certain units and special characters have specific Chapter Tactics and can only be taken in detachments of the specified Chapter."


I think that pretty clearly establishes that "chapter" is a property of the detachment, so an Ultramarines tank would be a tank chosen as part of an Ultramarines detachment, just like an Eldar tank would be a tank chosen as part of an Eldar detachment.

It's an Ultramarines detachment, but you're making an unsupported leap to say that a model in that detachment somehow gains that trait without a rule saying so.

rigeld2 wrote:
It's an Ultramarines detachment, but you're making an unsupported leap to say that a model in that detachment somehow gains that trait without a rule saying so.

Given that there is no other sensible interpretation of "Ultramarines tank" I think it's a pretty well supported "leap" to make. The only time "Ultramarines" is used as an adjective in the rules is in reference to the detachment attribute, so any other definition for "Ultramarines tank" would require inventing rules to justify it.

Well considering that if Chronus survives his vehicle being wrecked/destroyed he then is on foot and has the special rule:
Chapter Tactics (Ultramarines) makes it pretty damn obvious what detachment can take Chronus.

To take him in any other than an Ultramarines detachment would result in violating the rules and or he simply cannot be placed on the board should his ride ever be destroyed.

 Peregrine wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It's an Ultramarines detachment, but you're making an unsupported leap to say that a model in that detachment somehow gains that trait without a rule saying so.

Given that there is no other sensible interpretation of "Ultramarines tank" I think it's a pretty well supported "leap" to make. The only time "Ultramarines" is used as an adjective in the rules is in reference to the detachment attribute, so any other definition for "Ultramarines tank" would require inventing rules to justify it.

Peregrine is correct. The affiliation is part of the detachment. Vehicles are NOT identical regardless of detachment. Iron Fists and Vulkan He'Stan have rules that affect vehicles in the detachment as well, making it pretty clear that while vehicles do not normally gain the benefits of the Chapter Tactics rule, the chosen army affiliation DOES apply to them as part of the detachment. I also agree with Peregrine that there doesn't seem to be any other sensible way to interpret the rules.