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So Forgeworld just released the rules for the Tau XV107 R'varna (Broadside-like Riptide variant) online. While reading through the rules I noticed that the Submunition Cannons are "Pulse" weapons. Combined with its Nova Charge ability to fire its weapons again, could an Ethereal's 'Storm of Fire' ability be used to have the R'varna's weapons fire an extra shot?

If that was the case, it would could allow the 2 Pulse Submunition Cannons, to fire 8 shots, and anyone who has read their rules would know that is ridiculous.
I am personally hoping not because that is just stupid.

I would post the link to the Forgeworld's pdf, but I'm not sure if that would cause problems.

EDIT:
Forgeworld has responded to the Pulse Submunition Cannon and Storm of Fire

Forgeworld wrote:Hi Nilok, none of the Pulse Submunition weapons benefit from Storm of Fire.

Thankfully they chose the safer route for this thing.

No, they are not listed as pulse weapons in the Tau Codex and as such RAW do not benefit from the storm of fire ability.

RAI and HIWPI, I would say that being experimental, the pilot doesn't have enough mastery over it to allow him to get those extra shots off at the Ethereal's urgings and so no on that front too.

Note that even if the Ethereals power works it is only an extra shot which would work out to 6 not 8.

Base: 2
Volley fire allows an additional shot per weapon: 4
Storm of fire allows an additional shot: 6

On the other note it is a "pulse" weapon, while not explicitly listed there neither are any of the other forge world weapon variants. Guess we will have to see when the final rules come out for it.

Havoc0013 wrote:
Note that even if the Ethereals power works it is only an extra shot which would work out to 6 not 8.

You get 8 because the nova ability says "fire twice", not "fire an extra shot". So you fire twice, each time with two shots at half range or less.

Or at least you would if you can successfully argue that the Ethereal's ability applies even though the weapon is not listed under "pulse weapons" in the codex and the pulse bomb (a similar "pulse in name but not much else" weapon) is specifically excluded.

Since this is a FW weapon, it's clearly not listed in the codex under the "pulse weapons" heading. If it were to be included for use in Storm of Fire, then it would have be granted specific dispensation in the 107's rules to count under that rule. It was not, so no effect from SoF.

Leave it to FW to make a riptide even more broken. As if they weren't good enough to begin with. Of course, without making them extra special, nobody would bother paying the premium FW price. That premium price brings premium in-game capabilities.

On-topic, I agree with Peregrin's analysis.

 augustus5 wrote:
Leave it to FW to make a riptide even more broken. As if they weren't good enough to begin with. Of course, without making them extra special, nobody would bother paying the premium FW price. That premium price brings premium in-game capabilities.

On-topic, I agree with Peregrin's analysis.

Then obviously I am "noone", as I bought the model at GD, before the rules came out. So did quite a few people.

+1 to the above.

I'd buy one just to use as a regular Riptide. Most people I know don't buy FW for the rules, they buy it for the look and to use as replacements for crap GW models. I use FW battlesuits in my Tau army, because I find the GW ones garbage. I use Contemptor Dreadnoughts because I think they look better then the crap GW ones.

OT - I don't think you'll see it get the boost from the Ethereal unless a note is made that it benefits, although a solid querry.

The storm of fire special ability is a little bit unusual.

While it would be very simple to state 'it only effects weapons under the pulse category' the rule doesn't just stop there. It already addresses a weapon that are clearly not listed underneath the pulse weapon category, kroot rifles using a 'pulse round' weapon profile. This shows intent for the weapon to effect more then just the category known as pulse, it has already set forth the ground work by directly addressing a weapon found in another category.

It is not the first time this has happened either, the plasma siphon affects weapons outside of the plasma category, such as pulse weapons, burst cannons and even missiles with a plasma warhead!

Where it becomes very difficult to say for certain what weapons outside of this category are included is the fact some weapons are clearly disallowed. It isn't just the pulse category of weapons that use 'pulse technology' but the majority of the Tau weapons function on this technology. This includes the burst cannons, which are not granted an additional shot under the storm of fire special rule. They even address another types of weapons with pulse in the name, the Pulse Bomb, and out right deny it the ability to fire so one can not argue that it is everything with 'pulse' in the name either.

This leads to the only possible and easy conclusion being: The rule needs to directly address the weapon before it can be included in the list.

I will hold this as true for the Forge world weapons as well. They would need a exact line stating 'this can be effected by storm of fire' before I would allow you to use them. This limitation is probably even more justified for forge world weapons then any other 'pulse technology' weapon. This is because forge world weapons might not of been any where in the writers mind when he penned the rule; so even if all weapons with pulse in the name where effected I would still want to see a set rule in the forge-world book stating this precise weapon is allowed.

The pulse bomb is 100% a pulse weapon on page 66; it is excluded specifically because otherwise it would get an extra shot.

The pulse rounds bit shows intent; they are "Pulse weapons" even though they are not under that listing on page 66.

Due to the "Fluff" inclusion of Pulse rounds I would say the riptide Pulse sub-munitions get effected as well.

So you are fine with your opponents using Storm of Fire on Burst cannons?

JinxDragon wrote:
So you are fine with your opponents using Storm of Fire on Burst cannons?

While fluffy wise, Burst Cannons do use 'pulse' technology, they are listed under 'Burst Weapons', which are stated be sightly different in the fluff description than 'pulse'.

JinxDragon wrote:
So you are fine with your opponents using Storm of Fire on Burst cannons?

Burst cannons are no longer pulse weapons(as they were in previous books).
They are now different plasma technology similar to pulse weapons.

Depends on how you define the word 'similar.'

From my interpretation, Burst cannons are still using a 'pulse' induction field to propel a burst of plasma down the length of the barrel towards the target. The difference is clearly within the delivery system itself, with the fields being generated in a slightly different way designed to sustain the higher rates of fire. The theory behind it is likely identical, we are talking plasma manipulation far above what 20th century science understands so I can not say for sure. In any case, the end result is a field generated in the weapon propelling plasma down the barrel where it damages the target.

Now I have had a chance to look over the rules found on the Pulse Submission Cannon the very first words are: unlike standard pulse weapons.

It goes to point out how it is different to a standard rifle but they have already set the ground that they are different. The largest example of how this technology is different comes from the fact there is no generation of an induction field to project a plasma burst that is then projected towards the target. Instead a solid munition is delivered to the target area, where it explodes into many tiny plasma-inducing fields that blank said target area. If anything that is far greater a difference to pulse rifles then burst cannons are, at least the burst cannon generate plasma in the gun and project it.

If the only category for it's approval is 'fluff says it is pulse technology' then I do not see a reason why burst cannons can not be included as they use a plasma induction field more closely related to rifles then this cannon does!

Rules, for those interested, can be found here:
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/R/Rvarna.pdf

These are experimental rules so I don't really care. If someone tomorrow tried to drop 8 pie plates I would just laugh. It's never going to ever happen.

JinxDragon wrote:
Depends on how you define the word 'similar.'

From my interpretation, Burst cannons are still using a 'pulse' induction field to propel a burst of plasma down the length of the barrel towards the target. The difference is clearly within the delivery system itself, with the fields being generated in a slightly different way designed to sustain the higher rates of fire. The theory behind it is likely identical, we are talking plasma manipulation far above what 20th century science understands so I can not say for sure. In any case, the end result is a field generated in the weapon propelling plasma down the barrel where it damages the target.

It actually doesn't say that for Burst Weapons, it says:

Utilizing a similar plasma induction technology found in Tau pulse technology...

Tau Burst Cannons have as much in common with their Pulse Riles, as their Plasma Rifles.

More on the note, currently only weapons with the word "Pulse" could be eligible. However, so far Forgeworld has said that the Pulse Submunition Rifle is still experimental and not subject to the Storm of Fire rule right now. I think the Pulse Submunition Cannon is the same, possibly~ in the future, but only after it has see some serious field tested.

I can't say that for certain because we are simply trying to draw a defining line within a science-fiction based technology that we have no understanding about. The burst cannon might create an induction field far more similar to the pulse rifle then the field used in the larger plasma rifles. For all we know the plasma rifle, pulse rifle, pulse sub-munition rounds and burst cannons, pretty much everything not solid shot or ion, could be using the same induction field technology at the core. There might not be anything scientifically different about the induction field with the category each weapon is assigned to decided based on more external factors like the size of the weapon itself. That is the problem with a more 'fluffy' explanation, we are trying to define something we have no understanding of as it is far above our scientific knowledge.

Also, does the Storm of Fire ability actually work on the weapons at all?

It is unlikely the presence of the Ethereal suddenly makes the weapon some how function faster simply by standing beside it. It is more plausible that it is affecting the wielder of the weapons in these situations as this is how the other abilities work; they 'inspire' the Tau forces to greater feats of endurance and skill. Just because this ability requires the models to be armed with pulse weapon does not mean that it is effecting those weapons, it could still be effecting the wielder and nothing more. A better 'fluffy' reason would be that the mentioned weapons are all man-portable weapons, already able to fire multiple shots between reloading and light enough to be brought back into aim faster then the heavier counter-parts which are affixed to battle-suits. Given that all these weapons, bar the Kroot rifles firing pulse rounds, are found in the one category it is far easier to write a rule that simply points to that category then listing every possible multiple-shot and man-portable gun in the codex.

From a rule writing perspective; the most likely reason it was limited to the weapons found under the pulse category, on page 66 I believe, stems solely from a game balance perspective. The weapons that benefit are all the lower tier of the Tau forces, their standard infantry weapon, which are by nature the weakest weapons that can be fielded. By limiting it to these weapons they prevent certain ones, such as the ion accelerator, from being able to throw out more anti-TEQ blast templates. On that reasoning it also disallows the sub-munition rounds as quadrupling the amount of anti-MEQ pie-plates that already have a good chance of coming with the instant death rule as well.

In any case, rules as written is still very simple: - Show me where it is written that Pulse Sub-munition rounds are eligible and you can do it. Right now they do not meet the criteria simply because they have the word 'pulse' in the title. They are simply not found listed on the page that the Storm of Fire rule points us towards, nor are they mentioned by name like the pulse rounds are. The Storm of Fire ability does not address this weapon at all, as it the rule was penned before this weapon was added to the arsenal by a completely different team of writers, so you are going to need something more then 'it has pulse in the name' as justification for it benefiting.

In short:
Until forgeworld states 'this weapon is compatible with the Storm of Fire ability' then the ability does not work with it.

JinxDragon wrote:
In short:
Until forgeworld states 'this weapon is compatible with the Storm of Fire ability' then the ability does not work with it.

I think you were misunderstanding me, the problem I had is that you were trying to use a slippery slope argument with Burst Cannons to prove your point. Thankfully Forgeword has weighed in on the Pulse Submunitions Rifle and Storm of Fire.

Forgeworld wrote:The XV9 Pulse Submunitions Rifle doesn't benefit from the Ethereal "Storm of Fire" rule as it is an experimental weapon.

Forgeworld says that it can't use Storm of Fire, not because it isn't pulse, but because it is an experimental weapon. This is probably the best insight we have for how the rules should go down for the Pulse Submunitions Cannon.

Fluff wise, we could say that since the Pulse Submunition weapons are still experimental, an Ethereal can't disable the limiters for the weapon. However, any fluff conjecture is just conjecture.

I don't see it as slippery slope; Kal was trying to put forth an argument that they benefit from Storm of Fire because they are 'pulse' in the fluff. I was pointing out that other weapons, which clearly do not benefit, can still be described as using plasma induction technology similar to the pulse rifle by their fluff. This did focus on the Burst Cannon, as it is a very good example of this. Then there appeared to be a whole argument forming over how 'similar' to the pulse rifle something has to be in order for it to benefit from the Storm of Fire ability, so I was elaborating on my views concerning the fluff behind these weapons and how impossible it is for us to know for sure how 'similar' similar is. I just do not buy into the fluffy argument that the very different delivery system of the Sub-munition cannon is closer to the plasma delivery method used by the pulse rifle then the Burst Cannon is.

I will agree with you though;
we are all conjecturing over fluff as a possible explanation for what is clearly a limitation designed for game-balance.

 Nilok wrote:
So Forgeworld just released the rules for the Tau XV107 R'varna (Broadside-like Riptide variant) online. While reading through the rules I noticed that the Submunition Cannons are "Pulse" weapons. Combined with its Nova Charge ability to fire its weapons again, could an Ethereal's 'Storm of Fire' ability be used to have the R'varna's weapons fire an extra shot?

If that was the case, it would could allow the 2 Pulse Submunition Cannons, to fire 8 shots, and anyone who has read their rules would know that is ridiculous.
I am personally hoping not because that is just stupid.

I would post the link to the Forgeworld's pdf, but I'm not sure if that would cause problems.

Defintely not 8 shots, effectively you would be trying to fire its guns with 2 extra shots if you did that. I would say thats just not on.

The other option with 6 shots will be the subject of big debate. Some people state that because the weapons aren't listed in the codex then no it doesn't count, but some others have countered that to say that the list in the codex isn't a definitive list since pulse bombs can't be used and they are listed in the codex on the pulse weapons page while pulse rounds from Kroot can be used and they are not listed in that particular section.

I'm just going to wait and see what the arguments for either side before I make a judgement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 augustus5 wrote:
Leave it to FW to make a riptide even more broken. As if they weren't good enough to begin with. Of course, without making them extra special, nobody would bother paying the premium FW price. That premium price brings premium in-game capabilities.

On-topic, I agree with Peregrin's analysis.

Then obviously I am "noone", as I bought the model at GD, before the rules came out. So did quite a few people.

I bought it at Games Day as well. I was expecting it to be a unique character so I only bought the one. If I had known otherwise I would probably have bought two and just left the Hazard Suits.

 DarthOvious wrote:

 Nilok wrote:
So Forgeworld just released the rules for the Tau XV107 R'varna (Broadside-like Riptide variant) online. While reading through the rules I noticed that the Submunition Cannons are "Pulse" weapons. Combined with its Nova Charge ability to fire its weapons again, could an Ethereal's 'Storm of Fire' ability be used to have the R'varna's weapons fire an extra shot?

If that was the case, it would could allow the 2 Pulse Submunition Cannons, to fire 8 shots, and anyone who has read their rules would know that is ridiculous.
I am personally hoping not because that is just stupid.

I would post the link to the Forgeworld's pdf, but I'm not sure if that would cause problems.

Defintely not 8 shots, effectively you would be trying to fire its guns with 2 extra shots if you did that. I would say thats just not on.

The other option with 6 shots will be the subject of big debate. Some people state that because the weapons aren't listed in the codex then no it doesn't count, but some others have countered that to say that the list in the codex isn't a definitive list since pulse bombs can't be used and they are listed in the codex on the pulse weapons page while pulse rounds from Kroot can be used and they are not listed in that particular section.

I'm just going to wait and see what the arguments for either side before I make a judgement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 augustus5 wrote:
Leave it to FW to make a riptide even more broken. As if they weren't good enough to begin with. Of course, without making them extra special, nobody would bother paying the premium FW price. That premium price brings premium in-game capabilities.

On-topic, I agree with Peregrin's analysis.

Then obviously I am "noone", as I bought the model at GD, before the rules came out. So did quite a few people.

I bought it at Games Day as well. I was expecting it to be a unique character so I only bought the one. If I had known otherwise I would probably have bought two and just left the Hazard Suits.

You can find the R'varna's rules on Forgeworld for free. If you read the Volly Fire rule, it says fire the guns again, not they shoot another shot.
IF the 'Storm of Fire' worked with this, which it currently dose not, it each gun would fire 2 shots per gun. Since it is firing 2 guns 2 times (4), it would fire 8 shots total.

Thankfully, unless Forgeworld changes their mind, you can't do that.

if you use the nova ability to fire twice (ie times 2, not you get two shooting phases)

the guns go from

heavy 1 to heavy 2

then you apply the +1

you multiply before adding in 40k.

ie str+1 power fist at str4 is str9 not str 10

(4x2)+1 not (4+1)x2

also I believe(do not have tau codex handy) but storm of fire adds one to the number of shots the model would normally be allowed to fire, not the weapon or weapon profile.

so it would be

heavy (1x2) for each gun then +1 for storm of fire, for 5 shots.

if it adds 1 to the number of shots the weapon can fire and not the model then it would be 6 shots.

blaktoof wrote:
if you use the nova ability to fire twice (ie times 2, not you get two shooting phases)

the guns go from

heavy 1 to heavy 2

then you apply the +1

you multiply before adding in 40k.

ie str+1 power fist at str4 is str9 not str 10

(4x2)+1 not (4+1)x2

also I believe(do not have tau codex handy) but storm of fire adds one to the number of shots the model would normally be allowed to fire, not the weapon or weapon profile.

so it would be

heavy (1x2) for each gun then +1 for storm of fire, for 5 shots.

if it adds 1 to the number of shots the weapon can fire and not the model then it would be 6 shots.

reread the Nova charge ability for the guns, they don't go from heavy 1 to heavy 2 they stay heavy 1 but you get to fire each of them 2 times but it only counts as firing 1 weapon for each so it would be 8 shots IF the etheral storm of fire effects them.

Inded, each gun fires twice, but doesnt count for determning how many guns the model has fired. It isnt Heavy 2, it is 2 x Heavy 1, for each gun

Darth - at GD I was only allowed one while there, and had to order the one for my husband (the other was for a friend popping up from london the next week) instead - arrived last week, all pristine and lovely

Spoke to the designer, thanked him for continuing my inability to say no to pretty Tau stuff for my husband. AX1-0 was also an impulse buy when it came out...!

Must admit, I want this model as it is quite beautiful.

It is even better in person, annoyingly!

The design brief was apparnetly "stick the biggest guns on it that you want to"

He did.

Just ordered it myself, Im so excited,
But as far as whats being discussed, I just looked thru my codex
Its pretty straight forward in my opinion about what it affects
and I'm going to play this thing with its 4 pie plates and thats it,
as far as the ethereal power, its pretty detailed as far as who can use it and who can not
as much as i would like to drop 6 or 8 big blasts onto someone, I just don't think its fair, and as far as the rules go its a No to me

Forgeworld has responded to the Pulse Submunition Cannon and Storm of Fire

Forgeworld wrote:Hi Nilok, none of the Pulse Submunition weapons benefit from Storm of Fire.

Thankfully they chose the safer route for this thing.

Only 4 Pie Plates at max.

 Nilok wrote:
Forgeworld has responded to the Pulse Submunition Cannon and Storm of Fire

Forgeworld wrote:Hi Nilok, none of the Pulse Submunition weapons benefit from Storm of Fire.

Thankfully they chose the safer route for this thing.

Only 4 Pie Plates at max.

As if four were too few to begin with....

Nice that they clarified it for all pulse submunition weapons.