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Really this applies to any spell or effect that reduces weapon skill.

Tomb Kings and Tomb Princes have a special rule called "My Will Be Done" (MWBD) that states:

Any unit of Nehekharan Undead accompanied by a model with this rule uses the character's unmodified Weapon Skill in place of its own...

Emphasis mine.

So here's the question: do spells that modify weapon skill change the weapon skill of a unit containing a tomb king or prince?




Personally (and I'll admit that I'm biased, as the proud owner of a TK army), I feel that it would not work. Word of Pain affects the unit ("all models in the unit suffer..."), which MWBD overrides to reinstate the unmodified weapon skill.

One somewhat analogous situation is a prince equipped with Fencer's Blades. The TK FAQ specifically states that this does not work, as you use the Prince's unmodified WS. If you can modify the Prince's WS then fencer's blades works. If you can't then the entire unit is WS 5/6 regardless of any debuff cast upon them.

Thoughts?

I'm unable to find a rule similar to the "Set Value" one in the 40k Rulebook to resolve the order of effects. However, Unmodified seems to clearly cover it, allow me to expand:

Unit of WS 3 (I've no idea what it actually is), plus Tomb Chappy of WS 6, is affected by a spell that gives -1 WS (I don't know what Word of Pain is).

The unit is now WS 2 but uses the Unmodified value of 6 whenever it is checked (when striking in combat, for example), and the Chappy is now WS 5 (Unless he benefits from his own special rule?).

That would be my reasoning at least. It's quite possible I'm wrong though.

I think it would be an order of effect question - do you apply the the new ws or the spell first.
The rule for that is that the player who's turn it is chooses (can't rem page number).
So on your turn apply spell then take new ws - only character is affected by spell.
On opponent's turn new ws then apply spell - everyone is affected.

Not really - you use the unmodified value; if you dont use the unmodified value you have broken the specific army book rule.

Yes... but then you apply a modifier after that. Else you are not following the specific army book spell reducing WS. Ws goes from normal to character's unmodified (that rule is satisfied) then spell is applied (satisfying that rule). On your turn spell is applied (satisfying spell) then unmodified character ws is applied (satisfying the army book rule).

The unit uses the unmodified value - it does not matter when the modification happens.

That is the meaning of the word "unmodified".*



(Barring a FAQ stating otherwise. )

 Quanar wrote:
The unit is now WS 2 but uses the Unmodified value of 6 whenever it is checked (when striking in combat, for example), and the Chappy is now WS 5 (Unless he benefits from his own special rule?).

That would be my reasoning at least. It's quite possible I'm wrong though.

Well the wording, as I quoted, is "Any unit of Nehekharan Undead accompanied by..." The King/Prince himself has the Nehekharan Undead rule, and as per BRB 99 "Whilst a character is part of a unit, both he and the unit (including any other characters that have joined the unit) are treated as a single combined unit for all rules purpose..."

So I think that RAW both the Prince/King and any other model in the unit get to use that same unmodified WS. It gets modified, but when you actually check you get to use his unmodified WS in place of his own modified WS.

Yes, ok - so ws is modified in the magic phase, but when you actually use it it becomes character's unmodified ws. Fair enough.

Yeah this seems fairly cut and dry. Unmodified WS, means you can't modify it (for better or for worse). Unless they meant that rule to only work one way but we'd need an FAQ to make us think that.

The inclusion of the word "unmodified" solves this issue completely. You use WS 6, because that is unmodified.

For menit was "use the character's unmodified" whereas my initial interpretation was "have the character's unmodified" which would be different.

 The Shadow wrote:
The inclusion of the word "unmodified" solves this issue completely. You use WS 6, because that is unmodified.

+1 I at first thought the OP was trying to cheese, but I do believe this answers it. Even if you personally hex the Prince/King and make his WS -50 so that little old ladies are ninjas by comparison, it states to use his unmodified. It can't ever go up, it can't ever go down. What is printed in the book is it.

Not having the book to hand for the actual wording - but you can modify the TK Characters WS, but they pass their unmodified WS to the unit. As Fencer's Blades gives them the bonus in WS, and not over written by their special rule.

So you could have a WS 10 TK King in a unit of WS 6 Skeleton archers say.


Isn't Word of Pain the WS test spell? (I have yet to get the Dark Elves book)
If it is then it would be down to the wording of the MWBD, to see what they tested on.
ie All ways have unmodified King/Prince WS (needing 6s to damage) or just in the combat phase (needing 3+s or 4+s to damage).

EDIT: missed the 0 in my example.

MeanGreen wrote:
Not having the book to hand for the actual wording - but you can modify the TK Characters WS, but they pass their unmodified WS to the unit. As Fencer's Blades gives them the bonus in WS, and not over written by their special rule.

So you could have a WS 1 TK King in a unit of WS 6 Skeleton archers say.


Isn't Word of Pain the WS test spell? (I have yet to get the Dark Elves book)
If it is then it would be down to the wording of the MWBD, to see what they tested on.
ie All ways have unmodified King/Prince WS (needing 6s to damage) or just in the combat phase (needing 3+s or 4+s to damage).

If it says that the unit uses unmodified ws, fencer's blades doesn't work.

My Will Be Done does not effect characters (or mounts), so the Fencer's Blades are fine.

Note that this does mean that Word of Pain (et al) work vs. characters.

^first off, what he's saying is other characters in the unit other than the prince/king. Everyone else would get the MWBD.

You could argue...RAW...that even the prince/king gets it. But other chars don't. Which would give him "protection" from WS modifications including Word of Pain on the negative side and Fencer's Blades on the positive side. Why?

"Any unit of Nek Undead...uses this character's unmodified WS in place of its own."
"This Special Rule has no effect on mounts or any OTHER characters -- these always use their own WS."

Other characters implies that it works on this character. The one who actually possesses this rule to begin with. Which would mean his WS could never be modified + or -.

It's an odd phrasing. If they wanted it to not work on chars they could have just said it doesn't work on mounts or chars. They probably didn't think/worry about the Prince modifying itself because it's already itself. I.e., who cares. But it would explain the Fencer's Blade FAQ other than them trying to stop one item.

I had not read it as affecting the originator in any case, interesting.

The unit (joined) has the unmodified weapon skill did not read to me as including the one doing the joining.

I get that way too now.

huh.

Wow, so I was expecting at least a few people to disagree with me but it seems like there's a pretty general consensus that the WS remains unmodified.

Here's a fun secondary question, though: if you have TWO tomb princes in a unit, can their WS be modified?

Again I'm biased, but I would once again say no. Even though princes can't give each OTHER their WS 5 with MWBD, I do think they give it to themselves. MWBD gives unmodified WS to the unit, characters are part of the unit, therefore characters get it. OTHER characters are explicitly excluded from this rule, but the originating character is not. And while the bonus doesn't stack, it does overlap.

No, it says no other chars can be modified. And one prince takes over the unit. That means the other is able to be modified, oddly. So if you have a king and a prince in the unit, you could give prince fencers blades and WS10 and he could be debuffed by spell below his starting value, because he is not in control of that unit. I.e., his will is not being done and he's not doing the will of the other guy.

If 2 princes joined, it would get weird. Because it says take the highest WS and they are the same. I think you would just nominate one. It's a little late to debate it, but it clearly says it doesn't work on other chars and one model joins with it and the fact that they are both highest doesn't matter, you use it anyway, it's just a matter of whose will is being done and thus frozen.

It doesn't say one prince takes over the unit, though. Just that you only use one WS. So if the prince's MWBD affects himself then they're both protected by their own MWBD.


I think this is something I'm just going to have to bring up with my gaming group. The unit is definitely immune, but the Prince is going to be a judgment call. Either he benefits from Speed of Light / Fencers Blades but can be modified by spells, or he's immune to all WS modifications for better or worse.

Yeah, don't see why the Prince would lose his own rule - assuming the rule was printed accurately, you would check at the I step for each model; Does this model have the rule? Is it a non-character accompanied by a character with this rule? Both characters would get it off the first check (since they fulfill the rule), they aren't being given it by the other. It would be their own WS though, if Kings and Princes have different unmodified WS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Woohoo - that was my 1000th post

Any other characters don't get it. That's one of the rules of the special rule. It's odd, but that's how most special rules work. If you get someone with frenzy in a frenzy-causing group they aren't super frenzy unless it says so. I.e., per the FAQ you can have multiple of the same special rules but they don't do anything unless they say so. But MWBD says other chars can't use it and specifically have to use their own WS. The fact that they are members of the unit mean they have to abide by the special rule working on the unit.

I don't think it will come up much, if ever. But as a fluff stand-point, it's odd 2 princes would be going:
MY WILL BE DONE!
SHUT UP, MY WILL BE DONE!

Yes, other characters don't get it, but why would they lose it? They aren't getting stacked MWBD, just using their own copy.
How would you decide which lost it, as RAW they both have it.
Charcaters without the rule don't get it ofc, but the rule doesn't say that people lose it.