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I am quite new to 40k (and any wargames) been playing for about 4 months now.

I am collecting space wolves and this is roughly where i am with models. I find that I am not competitive at all, so does anyone have any tips?

My main focus in 40k is to have fun, but i like balanced games, and if i dont compete a bit more, its not fun. a little help?

Space Wolves
1497/1850

HQ
[ 3 ]
Wolf Priest (130pt.)
Crozius Arcanum; Fang of Morkai; Wolf Amulet; Frag and Krak Grenades; Runic Armour; Bolt Pistol; Saga of Hunter;
Rune Priest (120pt.)
Runic Weapon; Frag and Krak Grenades; Runic Armour; Bolt Pistol;
Rune Priest (120pt.)
Runic Weapon; Frag and Krak Grenades; Runic Armour; Bolt Pistol;
Troops
[ 3 ]
15x Blood Claws Pack (225pt.)
Power Armour(x15); Frag and Krak grenades(x15); Close Combat Weapon(x15); Bolt Pistol(x15);
9x Grey Hunters Pack (200pt.)
Power Armour(x9); Frag and Krak grenades(x9); Close Combat Weapon(x9); Bolt Pistol(x9); Bolter(x8); Plasma Gun; Mark of the Wulfen;
§ 1x Drop Pod (40pt.); Storm Bolter;
9x Grey Hunters Pack (200pt.)
Power Armour(x9); Frag and Krak grenades(x9); Close Combat Weapon(x9); Bolt Pistol(x9); Bolter(x8); Plasma Gun; Mark of the Wulfen;
§ 1x Drop Pod (40pt.); Storm Bolter;
Heavy support
[ 1 ]
6x Long Fangs Pack (140pt.)
§ 1x Squad Leader (15pt.); Power Armour; Frag and Krak grenades; Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon;
§ 5x Long Fang (25pt.); Power Armour; Frag and Krak grenades; Close Combat Weapon; Missile Launcher;
Secondary Detachment
[ 1 ]
Space Marines (362pt.)
HQ
[ 1 ]
Space Marine Librarian (100pt.)
Force weapon; Psychic hood; Frag grenades; Krak grenades; Power armour; Bolt pistol;
Troops
[ 1 ]
9x Scout Squad (137pt.)
§ 7x Scout (13pt.); Scout armour; Frag grenades; Krak grenades; Bolt pistol; Sniper rifle;
§ 1x Scout (23pt.); Scout armour; Frag grenades; Krak grenades; Bolt pistol; Missile Launcher;
§ 1x Scout Sergeant (23pt.); Scout armour; Frag grenades; Krak grenades; Sniper rifle; Bolt pistol;
Fast attack
[ 1 ]
Stormtalon Gunship (125pt.)
Ceramite plating; Twin-linked assault cannon; Skyhammer missile launcher;

On your Rune Priests I do believe you cannot have the exact same loadout. So you may want to give one of them Melta Bombs to make them different.

WIth Bloodclaws...I personally would swap them out for another squad of Grey Hunters.

Few Quick Points : - give the 2nd rune priest a bolter (that makes him legal as he will then be different to the 1st priest)

4 HQ Choices in 1500 points is a bit excessive, personally i would drop the wolf priest, dont think there is much point in him.

Blood claws are pretty rubbish, the only way i would run them would be with Ragnar in a Crusader otherwise they are really massively inferior to Grey Hunters.

If your not taking 10 grey hunters consider this - take 7 plus a wolf guard in terminator armor with combi weapon and then your priest, that fills out the pod nicely and lets your wolf guard tank the hits with his 2+ save at the front of the unit!

I would also thing about what you are trying to accomplish with the space marine contingent, if you have only taken it for the stormtalon then i would just drop it alltogether, you can stick a rune priest with divination in the long fang pack to twin link there missile launchers for anti air, being the lone moving vehicle is asking for that talon to just get blown to bits!

Space Wolves
1497/1850

HQ
[ 3 ]
Wolf Priest (130pt.)
Crozius Arcanum; Fang of Morkai; Wolf Amulet; Frag and Krak Grenades; Runic Armour; Bolt Pistol; Saga of Hunter;
Rune Priest (120pt.)
Runic Weapon; Frag and Krak Grenades; Runic Armour; Bolt Pistol;
Rune Priest (120pt.)
Runic Weapon; Frag and Krak Grenades; Runic Armour; Bolt Pistol;


Troops
[ 3 ]
15x Blood Claws Pack (225pt.)
Power Armour(x15); Frag and Krak grenades(x15); Close Combat Weapon(x15); Bolt Pistol(x15);
9x Grey Hunters Pack (200pt.)
Power Armour(x9); Frag and Krak grenades(x9); Close Combat Weapon(x9); Bolt Pistol(x9); Bolter(x8); Plasma Gun; Mark of the Wulfen;
§ 1x Drop Pod (40pt.); Storm Bolter;
9x Grey Hunters Pack (200pt.)
Power Armour(x9); Frag and Krak grenades(x9); Close Combat Weapon(x9); Bolt Pistol(x9); Bolter(x8); Plasma Gun; Mark of the Wulfen;
§ 1x Drop Pod (40pt.); Storm Bolter;


Heavy support
[ 1 ]
6x Long Fangs Pack (140pt.)
§ 1x Squad Leader (15pt.); Power Armour; Frag and Krak grenades; Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon;
§ 5x Long Fang (25pt.); Power Armour; Frag and Krak grenades; Close Combat Weapon; Missile Launcher;


Secondary Detachment
[ 1 ]
Space Marines (362pt.)
HQ
[ 1 ]
Space Marine Librarian (100pt.)
Force weapon; Psychic hood; Frag grenades; Krak grenades; Power armour; Bolt pistol;


Troops
[ 1 ]
9x Scout Squad (137pt.)
§ 7x Scout (13pt.); Scout armour; Frag grenades; Krak grenades; Bolt pistol; Sniper rifle;
§ 1x Scout (23pt.); Scout armour; Frag grenades; Krak grenades; Bolt pistol; Missile Launcher;
§ 1x Scout Sergeant (23pt.); Scout armour; Frag grenades; Krak grenades; Sniper rifle; Bolt pistol;

Fast attack
[ 1 ]
Stormtalon Gunship (125pt.)
Ceramite plating; Twin-linked assault cannon; Skyhammer missile launcher

 TBone wrote:
Since the Runic Weapons are judged by what type they are, technically, you could give one a sword and another a staff/maul and they would have different wargear.

Actually no. A runic weapon is a runic weapon no matter if it's modeled as a sword or axe. Note that in the Space Wolves Codex, (page 36) a runic weapon always wounds demons on a 2+. Therefore, it is a force weapon with it's own unique close combat rules, so technically ALL runic weapons are "Unusual Force Weapons" as described on page 60 of the rule book. They're treated as an AP3 force weapon with the additional rules found in the codex.

So as far as the "Leaders of the Pack" rule goes, it's not enough to give one Rune Priest a "runic sword" and the other rune priest a "runic axe" because they are both just "runic weapons". Honestly, I would give one of them a "chooser of the slain" for 10 points and that would solve the problem. Or drop the runic armor on one of them.

I also agree with the 4 HQs is a little high, but, I say that because your taking an attachment. If it was 1500 straight Wolves, I think 4 would be fine. I have run lists at 1500, SW, with 4 HQs. But got to keep them barebones if you want to keep the cost down

For a competitve list - or even a modestly competitive list, 4 HQs is too much. The problem is that SW characters are expensive even without wargear. But Wolf Lords and WGBL's are useless without wargear really, so they get expensive quick. You're better off taking at most two characters from the SW list and spending the rest of your points on more bodies.

I would simply stick with Grey Hunters due to their base wargear; another great investment for each squad is the Wolf Standard, it will come in handy

This is solid advice.

Missiles are a good investment, but when you put these lists up I wouldn't list everything that they have in the description.

This goes for the whole list really. Everyone knows that Grey Hunters have a bolter, bolt pistol, frag and krak. You really only have to list the extras you've added to the squad.

As for the list, I really don't see the point of allying with space marines. The Rune Priests are better than the librarian already. You don't need another psyker. Did you just want the storm talon gunship? Because there are MUCH better flyers. A Vendetta for example.

Ok, I have taken some of your advice. what do you think of this list? I know i still have bloodclaws, but i like outflanking them, i think its fun and its a different tactic to mix it up. maybe after ive played a few games with them, I might swap them for GH, but i wanna give them a try. sorry that the list was too detailed, i made it on a website and just copied it here. what do you think my new list?


Space Wolves
1747/1850

HQ
Wolf Priest (130pt.)
Runic Armour; Saga of Hunter

Rune Priest (100pt.)
Power Armour

Rune Priest (125pt.)
Runic Armour; Melta Bombs

Elites
4x Wolf Guard Pack (152pt.)

§ 2x Wolf Guard (38pt.); Terminator Armour; Power Weapon; Combi-plasma;
§ 1x Wolf Guard (38pt.); Terminator Armour; Power Weapon; Combi-melta;
§ 1x Wolf Guard (38pt.); Terminator Armour; Power Weapon; Combi-flamer;

Troops

8x Grey Hunters Pack (180pt.)

Meltagun; Mark of the Wulfen;
1x Drop Pod (40pt.); Storm Bolter;

8x Grey Hunters Pack (185pt.)
Plasma Gun; Mark of the Wulfen;
§ 1x Drop Pod (40pt.); Storm Bolter;

7x Grey Hunters Pack (170pt.)
Plasma Gun; Mark of the Wulfen;
§ 1x Drop Pod (40pt.); Storm Bolter;

14x Blood Claws Pack (210pt.)

Fast attack

2x Land Speeder Squadron (120pt.)
Edit
§ 2x Land Speeder Tornado (60pt.); Heavy Bolter (x2);

3x Thunderwolf Cavalry (215pt.)

§ 1x Thunderwolf Raider (70pt.); Bolt Pistol; Power Fist;
§ 1x Thunderwolf Raider (65pt.); Plasma Pistol; Close Combat Weapon;
§ 1x Thunderwolf Raider (80pt.); Storm Shield; Close Combat Weapon;

Heavy support

6x Long Fangs Pack (160pt.)
Edit
§ 1x Squad Leader (15pt.) Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon;
§ 2x Long Fang (20pt.); Heavy Bolter;
§ 2x Long Fang (40pt.); Lascannon;
§ 1x Long Fang (25pt.); Missile Launcher;


Automatically Appended Next Post:
anyone?

On the new list i have a few points - if your intending on putting the wolf guard in the grey hunters you need to drop the hunters to 7 men so you can fit both the rune priest and wolf guard in each hunter pack.

Thunderwolves - drop the plasma pistol in favour of another storm shield or power weapon there strengths lie in CC not shooting.

Long fangs - i would personally try to do 3 missiles 2 lascannons as i find the capacity for 3 frag missiles is better anti infantry than the 2 heavy bolters, also with the wolf guard if one is joining this squad give him a cyclone missile launcher!

they idea is that all the grey hunters have a wolf guard with them and one unit has a rune priest (the other rune priest goes with the long fangs for prescience) the last wolf guard goes with the long fangs for a bit of protection.

thanks for the idea on thunderwolves, i have never played them before and have just bought some, havent even built them yet!

and i would love missiles in long fangs, however i dont have any yet, you know where i can get some more missiles? ive made some out of hunter killer missiles and stuff, and I cant have a cyclone unless i put another wolf guard in!

 Grugknuckle wrote:

 TBone wrote:
Since the Runic Weapons are judged by what type they are, technically, you could give one a sword and another a staff/maul and they would have different wargear.
Actually no. A runic weapon is a runic weapon no matter if it's modeled as a sword or axe. Note that in the Space Wolves Codex, (page 36) a runic weapon always wounds demons on a 2+. Therefore, it is a force weapon with it's own unique close combat rules, so technically ALL runic weapons are "Unusual Force Weapons" as described on page 60 of the rule book. They're treated as an AP3 force weapon with the additional rules found in the codex.

Ah good catch, sorry about that, guess I read the first part about being Force Weapons and since they are treated differently, but missed the part about the "Unusual"...thanks for the clarification...

Commander Helia wrote:
Thunderwolves - drop the plasma pistol in favour of another storm shield or power weapon there strengths lie in CC not shooting.

Definitely drop the plasma pistol, but don't bother paying for a power weapon on the Thunderwolves. They already have rending attacks and that's good enough. A Storm Shield would be a better choice, but costs more.

Does the second rune priest really need meltabombs? His wargear is already different from the others because he has runic armor. He'll probably never use those meltabombs, so spend the 5 points somewhere else.

I don't like the way your long fangs are set up, but I understand that it could be just the models you have. If you want the most competitive set up, just go with 5 Missile Launchers, or 5 Heavy Bolters. Don't mix up the weapons like that and don't pay the 15 point premium for lascannons - it's not worth it. It's 25 pts for a lascannon, 10 points for a missile launcher. But for those extra points all you get is +1 to strength, +1 to AP and you lose the option for frag missiles.

ok cool, plasma pistol and powerfist are gone from the TWC, aaaaaand the rune priest had melta bombs cos i had 5 points spare, so they have gone to.

what do you guys think of the land speeders with heavy bolters? they seem to work well, i like em,.

garyashbolt wrote:
ok cool, plasma pistol and powerfist are gone from the TWC, aaaaaand the rune priest had melta bombs cos i had 5 points spare, so they have gone to.

what do you guys think of the land speeders with heavy bolters? they seem to work well, i like em,.

Keep the powerfist on the TWC - just drop the plasma pistol.

The powerfist gives you 4 attacks (5 on the charge) at Strength 10 AP 2 with the TWC. That's good! It causes instant death on most things, and shreads heavy tanks too. What I was saying is that a power WEAPON (sword, axe or maul) is not worth it on a TWC because it really only provides AP3. That's a waste of 15 points because with Rending, you're already AP2 with one out of every 5 wounds anyway.

garyashbolt wrote:


Space Wolves
1747/1850

HQ
Wolf Priest (130pt.)
Runic Armour; Saga of Hunter

Rune Priest (100pt.)
Power Armour

Rune Priest (125pt.)
Runic Armour; Melta Bombs

Elites
4x Wolf Guard Pack (152pt.)

§ 2x Wolf Guard (38pt.); Terminator Armour; Power Weapon; Combi-plasma;
§ 1x Wolf Guard (38pt.); Terminator Armour; Power Weapon; Combi-melta;
§ 1x Wolf Guard (38pt.); Terminator Armour; Power Weapon; Combi-flamer;

Troops

8x Grey Hunters Pack (180pt.)

Meltagun; Mark of the Wulfen;
1x Drop Pod (40pt.); Storm Bolter;

8x Grey Hunters Pack (185pt.)
Plasma Gun; Mark of the Wulfen;
§ 1x Drop Pod (40pt.); Storm Bolter;

7x Grey Hunters Pack (170pt.)
Plasma Gun; Mark of the Wulfen;
§ 1x Drop Pod (40pt.); Storm Bolter;

14x Blood Claws Pack (210pt.)

Fast attack

2x Land Speeder Squadron (120pt.)
Edit
§ 2x Land Speeder Tornado (60pt.); Heavy Bolter (x2);

3x Thunderwolf Cavalry (215pt.)

§ 1x Thunderwolf Raider (70pt.); Bolt Pistol; Power Fist;
§ 1x Thunderwolf Raider (65pt.); Plasma Pistol; Close Combat Weapon;
§ 1x Thunderwolf Raider (80pt.); Storm Shield; Close Combat Weapon;

Heavy support

6x Long Fangs Pack (160pt.)
Edit
§ 1x Squad Leader (15pt.) Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon;
§ 2x Long Fang (20pt.); Heavy Bolter;
§ 2x Long Fang (40pt.); Lascannon;
§ 1x Long Fang (25pt.); Missile Launcher;
Automatically Appended Next Post:
anyone?

Looks much better, but really you gotta get rid of those Bloodclaws. They sereve absolutely zero purpose in a SW list. Grey Hunters are still some of the best troops in the game. You've got it tough enough being a Space Wolf in 40k right now, so play to your strengths. Losing the blood claws, runic armor on your rune priest and, I would suggest ditching the Wolf Priest as well, will net you A LOT more Grey Hunters and a much stronger presence on the board Turn 1. Also it seems to me that GH are best run in 10 man squads to make use of the a.) Free special weapon and b.)Maximize usefulness of Wolf Standard. I suggest getting at least 2 full 10 man squads. You can bump one down to 8 to accomodate a RP and WG sergeant. Now take all those other WG you bought and put them into one squad, and give them a pod of their own and combi-meltas all around. Now you have tough unit that is going to be a serious thorn in you opponents side, as well enough bodies to back them up.

Now back to the Bloodclaws: Combat is very nerfed in 6th now that you can't come on the board and assault. Your Bloodclaws will spend a turn sitting on the board with their thumbs up their arses while getting shot down or skirted. What can do combat still are Thunderwolves. If you don't put enough pods in your enemies face on turn 1, they will go to town on your Thunderwolves (I hate seeing these majestic beasts go down ) before they can get in combat. You need to put at least 3 preferrably 4 down turn one but 4 is going to be hard to come by if you're paying for Thunderwolves and Long Fangs AND Blood Claws.

I completely agree that maxing out your grey hunters is the way to go with Space Wolves, but I personally think it's boring and I've been playing other armies as a result. I have had good luck with the blood claws + Wolf Priest combo. Think about putting them in a Land Raider? Not a lot of people are taking lists that can easily deal with AV 14 (Tau nonsense excluding.) But that'll make sure they can always get from the board edge to their target and assault when they need to. Plus Land Raiders are a pretty awesome fire-base/gak magnet.

I'd also strongly recommend moving some points around to take the wolf banner on your grey hunter squads. Best 10 points you'll ever spend. The banner allows your to re-roll 1s for an entire assault phase. So the strategy is to pop it when an opponent declares a charge on you so you get the benefit of re-rolling 1s on overwatch, not to mention the rest of the phase.

I might split the land speeders into two different fast slots (if I'm reading your list right.) to allow them to take on different targets. And I'd also look into using the Multi-Melta and Heavy Flamer. I think that combo is 10 points total and it's pretty devastating on a model that can move 30" a turn.

I have very mixed feelings about Thunder Wolf Cavalry in this ed. I like your composition, although maybe I'd drop the plasma pistol. The biggest problem I have with them is that any old guardsmen blob can and will kill them with weight of flashlights before they can get near anything. Having said that, they're a really really good gak magnet for the rest of your forces, if an expensive one at that. The bonus being if they do survive into combat, they will most likely run train on anything they encounter.

Also, I'm sure this has been said, but taking anything but Missile Launchers on your long fangs is a mistake. Talk to your friends and see if you can get some extra missile launcher bits. Maybe they've just gotten the new vanilla tac squad box and don't need them. Or custom up the extra missile launcher from the scouts box. You'll save points and the unit will be much more effective.

 Sneezembop wrote:
I completely agree that maxing out your grey hunters is the way to go with Space Wolves, but I personally think it's boring and I've been playing other armies as a result. I have had good luck with the blood claws + Wolf Priest combo. Think about putting them in a Land Raider? Not a lot of people are taking lists that can easily deal with AV 14 (Tau nonsense excluding.) But that'll make sure they can always get from the board edge to their target and assault when they need to. Plus Land Raiders are a pretty awesome fire-base/gak magnet.

Most Eldar lists have at least a few Bright Lances, Fire Prisms, or a Wraithknight, all of which will make a mockery out of one AV14 vehicle.
Drop pod marines will always be toting melta and its not like you have interceptor to stop them.
Tau have the fusion blaster suits and railheads.
Guard have ordnance.
Deldar have lance too.
Necrons will gauss you to death.

Point is there aren't that many armies that can't squish ONE land raider pretty easily. In pairs it's a different story, they're just so damn expensive.

I agree that Blood claws are fun, but well they're just not very good. If you wanna win some more games you might want to reconsider them.

Ps: All this talk of blood claws is making me nostalgic. Anyone else remember the days in 3rd and 4th when you could take 13 of the and run 3 powerfists on them?!! Slap a Wolf Lord and Wolf Priest on em and chunk 12 rerollable PF attacks safely nestled inside 15 other bodies. GLORIOUS!!

astro_nomicon wrote:

 Sneezembop wrote:
I completely agree that maxing out your grey hunters is the way to go with Space Wolves, but I personally think it's boring and I've been playing other armies as a result. I have had good luck with the blood claws + Wolf Priest combo. Think about putting them in a Land Raider? Not a lot of people are taking lists that can easily deal with AV 14 (Tau nonsense excluding.) But that'll make sure they can always get from the board edge to their target and assault when they need to. Plus Land Raiders are a pretty awesome fire-base/gak magnet.

Most Eldar lists have at least a few Bright Lances, Fire Prisms, or a Wraithknight, all of which will make a mockery out of one AV14 vehicle.
Drop pod marines will always be toting melta and its not like you have interceptor to stop them.
Tau have the fusion blaster suits and railheads.
Guard have ordnance.
Deldar have lance too.
Necrons will gauss you to death.

Point is there aren't that many armies that can't squish ONE land raider pretty easily. In pairs it's a different story, they're just so damn expensive.

I agree that Blood claws are fun, but well they're just not very good. If you wanna win some more games you might want to reconsider them.

Ps: All this talk of blood claws is making me nostalgic. Anyone else remember the days in 3rd and 4th when you could take 13 of the and run 3 powerfists on them?!! Slap a Wolf Lord and Wolf Priest on em and chunk 12 rerollable PF attacks safely nestled inside 15 other bodies. GLORIOUS!!

I guess my point is that while most of these armies could in-fact take one land raider out on Turn 1, trying to take one out, in their backfield on Turn 2 is a lot trickier. Even if they do it, it's going to require a huge amount of focus firing from the rest of the army. I'm not saying it's a perfect strategy, but if you want to run a crazy Blood Claw unit, that's how I'd do it.

What worked for me as a core army:

Rune Priest, boltgun, chooser, runic armour (jaws, LL)
Rune Priest, bolt pistol, chooser, warlord (MH, LL)

Wolf Guard with 4x Combi-plasma, 3x Combi-melta, 1x Combi-flamer, 1x TDA with PF and Heavy Flamer, 1x TDA with SS, in a drop pod

Lone Wolf in TDA with SS and chain-fist, with 2 fenrisian wolves.

10x GH with 2 melta, standard, wulfen in drop pod
7x GH with flamer, standard, wulfen in drop pod (jaws Rune Priest and a WG temie comes here)

2x LF with 5x ML behind aegis with quad gun

Turn 1 jaws, flamer, heavy flamer squad is devastating on large mobs. On the other hand the dropped in RP is a fire magnet, if you think he will be shot at a lot, use the SS termie.

On higher points you need more GH squads, because the drop pod ones die a lot.

One other thing that saved me a lot of times, is joining the Long Fangs with a Wolf Guard without upgrades, to protect the heavy weapon LFs. And he can also man the quad gun.

astro_nomicon wrote:

Ps: All this talk of blood claws is making me nostalgic. Anyone else remember the days in 3rd and 4th when you could take 13 of the and run 3 powerfists on them?!! Slap a Wolf Lord and Wolf Priest on em and chunk 12 rerollable PF attacks safely nestled inside 15 other bodies. GLORIOUS!!

Ahh the good old days. *sigh*

But that was also back when a stock Grey Hunter cost 18 points.

 Sneezembop wrote:

I guess my point is that while most of these armies could in-fact take one land raider out on Turn 1, trying to take one out, in their backfield on Turn 2 is a lot trickier. Even if they do it, it's going to require a huge amount of focus firing from the rest of the army. I'm not saying it's a perfect strategy, but if you want to run a crazy Blood Claw unit, that's how I'd do it.

Except that it WONT be in their backfield on turn 2. Saga of the Hunter gives the Wolf Priest "outflank", but that only works for Dedicated Transports. The Blood Claws cannot take a land raider as a dedicated transport - they have to take it as a heavy support choice.

Hence the Land Raider CANNOT outflank with Blood Claws in it. Wolf Guard on the other hand CAN take a Land Raider as a dedicated transport.

 Grugknuckle wrote:

Except that it WONT be in their backfield on turn 2. Saga of the Hunter gives the Wolf Priest "outflank", but that only works for Dedicated Transports. The Blood Claws cannot take a land raider as a dedicated transport - they have to take it as a heavy support choice.

Hence the Land Raider CANNOT outflank with Blood Claws in it. Wolf Guard on the other hand CAN take a Land Raider as a dedicated transport.

But you could put a Wolf Guard in that squad and have HIM take the LR as dedicated transport. No? I'm not entirely clear as to how that works, so I may be doing it wrong, the codex is ambiguous as usual.

No. All of the Wolf Guard are purchased together as a unit. Then the individual infantry WG are sent to lead the other units. The Land Raider will be a dedicated transport for the WG unit and so the Blood Claws will not be even allowed to get into the LR until turn 2.